Christianity and socialism

rosequartz , there are socialists who are atheists ,it doesn't follow one has to be both . For me I find socialism is closest to my faith. What I don't understand are those who are Christian and racist, support the death penalty, I really have trouble trying to understand how they can claim to follow the teachings of Christ. I just cannot accept reasons put forward for the vast wealth of the Vatican, and as you have said - forbidding contraception , this is not taking the life of a child , often it does take the life of the mother and leaves children without their mother , this is so against the Stations of the Cross where Christ whilst dying protects his mother

Thanks for clearing that up soontobe

I would have said that there is no true, correct answer and that to say 'I am Christian therefore I must be a socialist' cannot be right in all instances.

Socialism has a very broad spectrum, and to take it to its extreme left would mean denying any religion.
To say that moderate Toryism means a person cannot be a Christian is equally wrong.

How much did the church, particularly the Catholic church, follow the teachings of Christ?

anniebach's post about the riches of the church in juxtaposition to the starving street child is so true and the power of the Catholic church to perpetuate poverty in the world by the denial of contraception is an outrage.

The concept of Christanity is a good one but I don't think its ideals can be claimed exclusively by the socialists.

Back in that time, there appears to have been buildings, as well as groups meeting in each others' houses, and down by the river etc

Of course there were buildings, Jesus was Jewish and taught in the temple (synagogue) as well as drive the moneylenders out of the temple because it was being used for commercial purposes.
The "house groups" you refer to, with the exception of the Last Supper, didn't start until after his death
The exception is of course his open air meetings, the Sermon on the amount etc, which were just that, public meetings, a bit like Speakers' Corner.
I sometimes think some Christian groups forget or ignore the fact that Jesus was a Jew of his day.

I said that vampirequeen, when I didnt fully understand the term. It took me most of the thread to understand things.

But now I am trying to go back and reunderstand and understand what I was thinking at the beginning, and I am getting confused again!
So I think I was wrong to think that durhamjen, yourself and Anniebach didnt agree with it.

I hope that explains things?

*"Love thy neighbour, do unto others, " etc, however laudable, are not specifically exclusive tenets of Socialism except in the sense that it is underpinned by equality and justice for all.

I think that I agree with this. I dont think durhamjen, vampirequeen and Anniebach do?*

Soontobe please explain why you think I don't agree with this?

The socialists on this site don't seem too keen on humility, forgiveness and turning the other cheek!

Ana, can you give examples please?

It depends on the split, soon, between the rich and the poor.
It is not a good time to be poor in this country, as the rich have got richer and the poor have been penalised even more.
The government do not appear to me to be acting in a very Christian or socialist way.

Elegran, it is also interesting that so many Churches are built on ground that was sacred to the ancients way before Christianity. We are not Christians and yet feel that the ground we live on has something 'special about it' as someone said the other day when we had a concert here- this place has got very good vibes (we live next to a very old Church in an old vicarage, built on a previous religious building).

To me, a wealthier country is a better country for poor people to live in, than a poorer one? The poor fare better in terms of money, health provision, education provision etc?
Again, I am willing to be corrected.

* If God is anywhere, He is everywhere*

I think, and I could be wrong, that Jesus' spirit is in Christians. But when two are three are gathered together, then Jesus himself is amongst us.
Some one can correct me on that if I have got that wrong.

As you say, the part about wealth was to do with that specific man [though it may apply to more people too].
Jesus at that point was not speaking to the administrative boards of the churches.

When Jesus himself was preaching, there were church buildings. And as far as I am aware of, [unless he was talking about dishonesty there, or the specific bit when he was talking about tearing one down and building one up in reference to what was coming regarding his own life], he didnt seem to have an issue with them.
Back in that time, there appears to have been buildings, as well as groups meeting in each others' houses, and down by the river etc.

But yes, situations like you describe in South America do not seem to be Christ like to me.

Anniebach I agree.

Not out of context soon, it was the reply to the question put by the young man who had lived according to the scriptures - what else could he do to inherit enteral life , I understand he was not saying everyone should give away all they had and he didn't disapprove of the young man, going by memory I think it is said Jesus loved him , this is the defence put forward by the church, for me it is wrong to surround one's self with wealth whilst others starve and by wealth I am not thinking only of very wealthy people

A "church is on holy ground" but it is holy ground because a building has been built on it, where people meet and think of God (the "two or three are gathered together in my name") The building or the spot is nothing without the people and their thoughts. If God is anywhere, He is everywhere.

It is understandable that those who meet there feel that the place has a special meaning to them, and it has to be maintained and kept pleasant, but lavishing wealth on it when the congregation are in want (and others who are not of the congregation) is not according to Jesus words.

The Quakers manage without owning properties

There are several points to be made about the wealth of the churches. One is that much of the 'wealth' is tied up in buildings, many of which are historic, iconic landmarks, expensive to run and a nightmare to repair and in salaries and pensions, training, mounting major public events and so on. Another is that of course, a church doesn't need any of that. But members of a faith community want the place where they worship to be as beautiful as possible. Look what happened with the people who arrived from Asia in the 20th century. They started off worshipping in community halls and rented houses and as soon as they could, built temples, mosques, gurdwaras. Much of the wealth of all religions is from the gifts of the faithful, willingly given.

The church can be two or three. But often a lot more than that gather.

@Soon - "A church is on holy ground" What's 'holy' about it? Has a man in a special hat said some magic words there? Yes, I know that sounds perhaps a bit patronizing, but really... a Bishop seems to me to be no different to a conjurer, except that his tricks never work...

I thought that' the church' was wherever two or three are gathered in the name of God. So why do they need all the riches ?

I read Corrie Ten Boom's books a long time ago. They were very very moving for lots of different reasons.

It's amazing how dogmatic people are about this Jesus - in fact nothing is known for sure about the man (whose name was not Jesus), nothing is known for sure about anything he might have said or done. There are no contemporary documents, no mentions in the work of historians. Nothing. Nada. Bupkes... And yet you will tell me, with not a shadow of doubt that he did this or said that. Now - I'm not saying he didn't; I'm saying that nobody knows...

We do know that many of the stories that are interpolated in the Gospels are uncannily simlar to those told of other heros inthe general area of the Middle East. Those same Gospels disagree on most things anyway.

God can be found anywhere soon, did you ever read Corrie Ten Booms book of her time in a nazi concentration camp?

Soontobe We have been here before. Give us a break

Anniebach, I agree with your post there.

[the sell what you have and give to the poor bit may be out of context in the way you have used it in that post. I will look that up myself tomorrow].

A sign might have been a better word?