There is definitely no loving God. Fact.

And I do admire you for this - sadly many religious people do believe that their God is benevolent only to His/Her own- and only if...

Granjura thank you. I think perhaps it has endured because I don't expect more from God than he gives an atheist . I am equal to all in his eyes, not above or below a line , I don't give it much thought, he loves me, he loves all , he sent Christ to guide us and we choose to follow or not.

Exacgtly how I feel Lucky. I do wonder to what extent the fact I grew up in a 'mixed' family where religion was a souce of much unpleasantness and discrimination (going totally against what the religion said) - and then marrying someone who came from an even much more mixed family, where it was the same only 10X worse... and then acquired many friends on our travels with yet more and very different faiths- confirmed to us, what we both felt already as young children - that all those sincere people with their own and very different faiths and rules, etc- just cannot be reconciled (and therefore that it made no sense at all).

Annie your faith was certainly tested in the extreme, and I am so sorry for this. It is amazing your Faith endured, but I am glad to hear that it was of great comfort to you x

Thank you Luckygirl, I assure you I have raged , faith doesn't take away grief or anger at injustice . I once said in confession how I had walked up one of our mountains and ranted and raved ,swore , I was advised - no matter he is bigger than you, he can take it , that you raged at him shows your faith in him.

Suppose just as a child gets in a strop with a parent , it calms and the love remains

For those who have acquired this thing called faith (from where? - who knows?)I guess that the bottom line is that you believe in a god or gods.

For those to whom this concept is alien (perhaps we are not the chosen ones!?) then spending a lot of time trying to decide whether any god (let alone a loving one) exists is futile. Getting on with being as decent a human being as you can and spreading as much happiness as you are able to would seem the better option.

Annie - I am glad that your faith has sustained you through some dreadful times.

Luckygirl, yes I understand that but surely they agonise because they doubt , this I meant when I said - if they have faith , if doubt crept in thst would be agonising

Granny23, not lucky, I have no idea why have I have not doubted, I have known great sadness , death of a young husband, two babies died at birth, my first love murdered in Pretoria prison , yet I never doubted , perhaps a time will come when I will, I am not not smug about my faith. Christ's teachings are so hard to follow and I fail often, but I have never known doubt in God. I gave much time when young in discussion and prayer before I chose to give him my love, trust, faith . I have not lived a cosy sheltered life , there have been very difficult times but God has always been with me . Don't know how to explain it.

'My Lord, My Lord why hast thou forsaken me' Is that not agonising? You are a very lucky lady AB if you have never suffered the torment of losing faith, or having to choose between two evils, between following your heart or upholding your religious beliefs, between familial loyalties/duties and God's call.

Many many people agonise about this decision Annie - before they come to a conclusion, either one way or the other. People since the dawn of time have written great tomes about it, debated it, discussed it, killed over it......I think agonised is he right word.

If a person has faith why would they spend time agonising over it ?

I was not suggesting that religious people do not do good works, but saying that for me it is better to ditch the agonising about the existence or otherwise of a god/s and simply get on with living a decent life. So much time can be wasted on this fruitless search, and it would seem that every religion has kindness to others at its heart, even if it goes off the rails (sometimes in a very big way).

Here is something to think about on this topic

Sheilasue How terrible for you I hope the support you feel on this page helps you.

Shella I am so so sorry to hear that

My father actually came from a Huguenot family- who had to flee the persecution of Protestants in France. As Huguenots, they were prepared to be burnt at the stake, drawn and quartered and worse- for their beliefs that Popism was hell...

And yet, having emigrated to a part of Switzerland that was staunchly Catholic- they had to agree to farm the lands at high altitude and of little value- and couldn't intermarry or access any of the Guild's professions. Within a couple of generations they just turned coat- and became Catholics in order to access a normal life and have better chances. Many generations later- my dad's family having moved to a staunch Protestant Canton- they again had to go through discrimination in reverse- and had become such strong Catholics themselves ... oh the irony of it all. As said, Protestantism in the form of CofE and CofW (unlike the Scottish Kirk) are much more aligned to the old religion (Catholicism) for all sorts of very interesing reasons- and have very clear order of services and books of prayers- whereas Continental Protestant Churches do not.

Sheilasue, I am deeply sorry to learn of the death of your son.

I don't think religion has been the cause of wars for many a year , I don't even recall the last war carried out for religious beliefs, greed, power yes I agree

Just like to come in on this and say whilst I don't believe there is a god having lost my son in a domestic violence killing and cannot come to terms with it very well. We all have our beliefs and we must learn to respect one another's belief I hope no one has to go through what my family had to go through but it happens and it will keep on happening children dying wars being fought people and children dying of cancer etc I could go on and on get used to the fact that most wars are fought over religion. Man is not a good person greed is good said Mrs.Thatcher. We are living in a shameful world .

so far- but the jump is not much bigger than joining Catholics and Protestants in common services and marriages- in 1 or 2 generations. Just read 'Dnager to Elizabeth' about religious wars in England (and Scotland and Ireland) the gulf was just as massive, and yet.

Granjura, Muslims do not believe Christ is the son of God , they acknowledge him as a prophet so it is impossible

Granny23, there are many, many atheists who do good work but also have other interests, what difference for a Christian? I think you are seeing everything in practical acts and disregarding that time spent in payer gives many the strength and courage to carry out the most exhausting and for some most dangerous practical acts. I have dear friends in a silent order , they do not leave the convent, have little sleep, when I write I have no idea which sister will reply because forming personal friendships is not permitted. These women give up so much to spend their lives in prayer, I think their work is exhausting, demanding and for the good of mankind so I cannot agree they would do more if they lived a different life, to answer such a calling takes great courage and a deep love for mankind .

Time spent in prayer is a necessity for a Christian , I do what I can to help people but several times a year I enter a retreat house, I need this time of solitude , it's healing. So I think you judge harshly sorry

And yet Muslims and Christians believe in the same God...so it shouldn't be impossible.

Only thing to do was to move to UK, where grandfather hailed from, and just pretend to be CofE and blend in...

Yes, our young friend had to convert to Islam (from C of E) before he could marry a Muslim girl.
People are people and can't help falling in love!

Indeed Jalima- although we are still a long long away from mixed Catholic or CofE wiht Muslim marriage. Or in the case of my DH's parents, Muslim with Dutch Reformed Church- at the time of Aparthheid... or now!!!

That is just an example of course, but so good that we have inter-faith co-operation here nowadays.

Thank goodness Catholics and Protestants here now cooperate and join together in prayers
And Muslims and other faiths too joining in granjura - it is so good to see, isn't it:
www.westminster-abbey.org/worship/special-services/upcoming-special-services/2016/march/the-commonwealth-service-a-celebration-of-the-commonwealth