A thread to debate the existence or otherwise of the Christian God

I think there are lots of things in the scientific world we have to accept without there being any "proof" in terms ordinary mortals can necessarily understand. Black holes, "worms"(?), life (or not) on other planets, the existence of other universes, to name a few. Scientists may be able to "prove" them in scientific terms, but that is where I find myself sympathising with Doubting Thomas and find it hard to comprehend something I cannot relate to my own existence. In the Middle Ages I am sure I would have believed the earth was flat and that everything revolved around the earth!

So I don't think there is any point in trying to "prove" the existence of a God provable evidence-based terms which everyone accepts, however there is mileage in acknowledging a pattern for behaviour (whether Christianity, Judaism, Islam , Buddhism or Humanism) to help humankind to find a way through life. I believe it is in our nature to look for guidance, for rules and patterns - The 10 Commanments, Sermon on the Mount, etc, whether or not we abide by them.

Didn't Marx say 'religion is the opium of the masses'? I'm inclined to think that organised religion, whatever it is, can influence behaviour and, if you are very cynical (like me), you can see how it has been used by powerful people to do just that, and not necessarily in a good way.

Good post Alea
We can't expect proof of a life beyond this.There is no proof.However, that does not mean there there is no life beyond this.

Anniebach I demand nothing of you, except that you stop being annoyed with those who ask why you are so certain. There is no reason to avoid just saying "It cannot be proved but that is what I feel, and that is what I believe." That is where your faith lies, and that is what guides your life.

Not everyone feels what you do, or believes (in this case, for I am sure you don't believe other illogical things) what is not logical. It is not open to logical proof, or disproof. Human beings who have reached the point of ultimate proof and either gone to everlasting life, or not, keep the answer to themselves.

Anthropologists have found that human beings in all sorts of societies are naturally predisposed to believe in some sort of god or gods.

It is probably quite comforting to think that there is a plan underlying one's existence and which gives a definitive meaning to one's life. If a person believes in some sort of "power" that created and is in control of the universe and its inhabitants, I can't see a problem with this. What concerns me is the huge number of organised religions and their sub-sects that each have their own god/gods and whose followers are bribed or threatened with eternal life/eternal damnation if they don't adhere to a set of rules whose origins and motives are questionable. These religions invariably see themselves as the one true religion, which in itself creates a division between them and those whose beliefs are different.

There is no proof that there is an afterlife, nor is there proof that there is not. We will just have to wait and see!

What I don't understand is why people with a very strong belief feel so threatened when others do not feel the same. Surely one of the benefits of having a solid belief should be to instill a sense of calm, and make one impervious to the doubts and comments of those who are unfortunate enough not to have the same certainties?

You would think so Eloethan wouldn't you, but it never seems to work like that.

Can I politly ask couple of questions

Where did god come from. There must have been a time before him. Even if you call it nothingless

Am I right in saying that only humans have souls if that is so would this have applied to Neanderthal man

These are questios that have puzzled. Me for along time

I believe in a loving God. I could not explain to anyone why it's just something I fave felt since I was a child. It is not always easy to believe as my belief means trying to be kind to others (when sometimes I don't want to) and thinking of others (when I want to do something selfish). I have doubts, like many Christians but still the faith persists. I do not believe God causes bad things to happen or stands by while people suffer (this has been debated long and hard on other threads so don't bother telling me I'm wrong or asking me how that equates with the terrible sadness in the world). As I said this is my belief. I do not believe that others who lack faith will be condemned . I suppose my faith is a hope. But I can't prove God exists and no one can prove to me God doesn't.

"....trying to be kind to others (when sometimes I don't want to) and thinking of others (when I want to do something selfish)" That too is my belief Crafting, but I do not relate that eternal human challenge to god. It is just what we all strive towards, whether of faith or not.

I love your honesty in saying you cannot explain it. That is much preferable to believing because the bible (or some other sacred text) says so. Saying you cannot explain it means that you know it is illogical - and there is no insult intended here. It takes me nearer to understanding the christian position than all the bible quotes, and it has a tolerance that I would guess is nearer the christian ideal.

What I don't understand is why people with a very strong belief feel so threatened when others do not feel the same.

Of course this is true of fundamentalists, Eleothan, and it applies equally to evangelical atheists. The rest of us surely just muddle through and manage to be respectful and tolerant of others' religious or secular beliefs.

Cherrytree59 I doubt if anyone could answer your question. As Charles Darwin said "The safest conclusion seems to me to be that the whole subject is beyond the scope of man's intellect".

Lucky there are many people who say they are Christians who have totally different ideas from me. I would not say I am a good Christian because I struggle so hard at times but I do know that whatever doubts I have (and I do have doubts) there are times when I have turned to God for help in despair and that comforts me. I don't know if God exists anymore than anyone else but I believe and that is what faith is all about.

Crafting, is not being a Christian a struggle for so many Christians? I struggle , not with my belief in God but with my own weaknesses and my doubts are not in God but in my capabilities to be even a fraction of what I would like to be.

The Christian God exists, I suppose, for Christians as other Gods do for followers of other religions. To debate His existence seems fruitless, as there is no reasonable likelihood of proof, only of the affirmation of belief, which will not convince us atheists.

All I ask is that believers and unbelievers alike do not seek to impose their beliefs on the unreceptive, least of all by mockery.

Good post grumppa
I think that I agree with the Charles Darwin quote.
It all comes down to faith, in the end, and not 'proof'.

Just living what they feel is a good life is a struggle to many without faith, too. It is not only Christians who have ideals and try to live up to them.

Who is mocking? I merely posed questions. You seem very defensive...

'Having experiences', Soon, is what is known as anecdotal - it's not evidence.

All that interests me is the process by which believers justify their belief to themselves (i.e., I'm not saying 'you are wrong', or trying to 'convert' you in some way). It's the cognitive dissonance... the state of having inconsistent thoughts and beliefs, that fascinates the non-believer. You are completely welcome to your belief and to any solace and contentment you can derive from it - no-one can deny you that.

Atheism isn't about hating or mocking - who can hate what they don't think exists? It's rather more about a consistent world view, shorn of any supernatural notions.

Just my thoughts, I have no faith, we are a just a small part of the universe.
If there was a God I would not expect him to stop suffering on earth, that is up to us. God, if he existed, would not be some kind of Father Christmas policing us and looking after all the nice people who believed in him. Humans like to think they are important, IMO, life must have a meaning, especially at the end, some afterlife balm. That's not to say parts of the bible are not the way to live, faith or none, of course be kind to others, thoughtful, we are here for a short time. After we die we live in the memories of those who loved us and then are forgotten, which is fine by me. I cannot drive past an old church without having a look inside, reading long ago headstones, love the history of all those who worshipped there, made pilgrimages there. Sorry a simplistic post, I have never studied the bible and have no in depth knowledge or understanding.

I understand just what you are saying jamjar and I agree with you. It does seem hard on the innocents who suffer though.

@JamJar1 - I think the god you describe would, if you believed in it, make you a Deist, rather than a Theist - that is, one who believes that a god created the world and populated it but has ever since taken no interest in it.
I think it was a view popular among the Founding Fathers of the USA.

"Cognitive dissonance" indeed *feetlebaum. That is one of the things that fascinates those with no belief in god - how do believers reconcile the many inconsistencies?

Showing my complete ignorance feetlebaum I had to search and yes it was a view popular among the Founding Fathers.

Feetlebaum - " the process by which believers justify their belief to themselves."
Personally I never see any need to justify my faith/belief. It's on a different dimension of thought from logical belief.
Can't speak for others though.

When I said I try to live a good life and sometimes I struggle to do so I did not mean to imply that only Christians try to do that merely that I struggle to be as good as I think I should be. My DH has no religious beliefs but is one of the kindest nicest people I have ever met.

Why bother asking how believers "justify their beliefs to themselves" I don't. I believe. It is faith and that is all there is to it as far as I'm concerned. I understand all the scientific explanations for life on Earth and how implausible religion sounds but I can't get over the feeling that there is more. Someone, somewhere, something else - God. The feeling is inside me. In my heart and in my head. I have felt this way since I was a child. My parents were not religious (although both wonderfully kind and loving) so it didn't come from them. Sorry this is the only explanation I can give to those who ask. I can't explain it any further.

'Having experiences', Soon, is what is known as anecdotal - it's not evidence.

How can you know that, feetlebaum, without knowing what the experiences are?

Scientifically evidence needs to be replicatable, so individual incidents fall short of that test.

But it really is not about evidence - if someone feels that something is true, then to all intents and purposes it is - for that person. But it is of course not objective truth. That's OK as long as the belief does no-one any harm. Sadly it often does.