A thread to debate the existence or otherwise of the Christian God

Good post Alea
We can't expect proof of a life beyond this.There is no proof.However, that does not mean there there is no life beyond this.

Didn't Marx say 'religion is the opium of the masses'? I'm inclined to think that organised religion, whatever it is, can influence behaviour and, if you are very cynical (like me), you can see how it has been used by powerful people to do just that, and not necessarily in a good way.

I think there are lots of things in the scientific world we have to accept without there being any "proof" in terms ordinary mortals can necessarily understand. Black holes, "worms"(?), life (or not) on other planets, the existence of other universes, to name a few. Scientists may be able to "prove" them in scientific terms, but that is where I find myself sympathising with Doubting Thomas and find it hard to comprehend something I cannot relate to my own existence. In the Middle Ages I am sure I would have believed the earth was flat and that everything revolved around the earth!

So I don't think there is any point in trying to "prove" the existence of a God provable evidence-based terms which everyone accepts, however there is mileage in acknowledging a pattern for behaviour (whether Christianity, Judaism, Islam , Buddhism or Humanism) to help humankind to find a way through life. I believe it is in our nature to look for guidance, for rules and patterns - The 10 Commanments, Sermon on the Mount, etc, whether or not we abide by them.

Christians have no proof whatsoever to offer, and neither has anyone else.
you can 'feel' a certain way, or actually believe if you have faith, but of course there is no proof.

soon, you explained perfectly

So do you believe any thing that can't be proved? And if not, why not?

The thing is, for me and for other Christians I know, we have experiences. Personal experiences to ourselves. And personal feelings and thoughts to ourselves that cannot be explained away, and equally, if talked about, may not be believed unless you had personally experienced them.
Alea's post at 10.50am explains this quite well.

So the short answer is no, to your question!

Elegran, do not demand of me - please

I wish you wouldn't fall back on claims that you are having to endure being mocked when asked a logical question. If you believe this but not other things that cannot be proved, then say so.

feetlebaum, for soon and me our faith is strong, that you choose to mock us will not change the fact that we believe in God and the teachings of Christ , Christians have endured far more that a rather childish attempt at mockery

So do you believe any thing that can't be proved? And if not, why not?

In other words why would you pick out the beliefs of one obscure goat-herding sect of a couple of millennia ago, and what led you to make that choice?

Mark Twain said "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".

In fact we all have faith - I have faith that the sun will rise again tomorrow for example. But that is founded on the knowledge that it has never failed to do so in billions of years and on understanding the mechanics of orbiting celestial bodies!

Faith means believing in something that cannot be proved. Christians have faith.

An aethiest may be willing to change their opinion of existence, but it requires obedience to become a Christian too

As for 'proof' - science doesn't deal in 'proof': the nearest it gets is to fail to disprove. Only the believer talks of proof - since he or she needs none to continue believing. The atheist position is that if he/she can be shown good evidence, he/she will willingly change their opinion. That is quite different from attitude of the believer.

NotTooOld - don't have all (or any, really!!) of the answers but I just wondered if anyone (else?) had a different view of what God was like? I can't subscribe to this idea that God is sitting 'up there' watching our every move and ready to send down a plague of something nasty if we misbehave, for example. I can't believe in the words of the bible as a basis for a religion, nor any other religion for that matter, and yet in recent times I am more certain there is 'something'. What I think that is isn't well thought out and very personal so I won't try to explain. I just wondered if anyone else had similiar thoughts?

Elegran - exactly. Well put.

mollie - do you mean a bit like a self regulating system? That is quite problematical, I think, because we would have to think about what infuences there are upon our beings and how those all differ. Interesting theory, though.

Couldn't believe it when I saw the title of this thread. Haven't we been here before?

It would be useful to start with an idea of what we mean when we say 'God'. Much of the discussion here suggests 'someone' who is 'up there' looking down on us. What about the idea that God is within us?

Perhaps the "higher authority" is the system itself, self-regulating and balancing all the disparate elements, wearing down mountains to sand and rebuilding them from layers of silt, feeding each bit of the food chain from the one below it in an endless circle, taking back the molecules and atoms of our bodies when we die and recycling them into new organisms?

I believe there is a 'higher authority', if you like, but not in the sense that some people believe in 'a god'. Perhaps it's 'nature' - or even 'Mother Nature'? I don't know, but whatever it is I don't think we are capable of knowing it or even understanding it. I don't believe in an after-life, either, although it must be very comforting to do so. I think we are born, we die, our remains are distributed in one way or another and, in that way, we are re-born - just like the flowers! I'm coming back as a daffodil.

If there was a god, Christian or otherwise (which I personally don't believe for one minute that there is), I find it almost impossible to believe that 'he' would damn humans, creatures 'he' has supposedly created, simply for not believing that 'he' exists. Why would he even care as long as they were not evil? Similarly, I think that such a powerful god would find it quite simple to prove 'his' existence to us beyond all doubt, rather than depending on blind faith, which is after all potentially a very dangerous quality (not quite the word I want, but the best that I can think of this moment) that is open to dreadful abuse if wrongly placed.

That's my take on it. I know that none of us, whatever we believe, will change anyone else's stance on this because of anything said on here, but it feels good to voice an opinion anyway!

Agree with Alea that there is no proof that everyone would agree on.

In a darkened room?

I don't think there is any proof to offer someone who doesn't have faith. To someone with faith, that faith is the proof, IYSWIM.

That's me done - I'm off for a little lie down.

I welcome this as an alternative to the other thread reaction OP felt to a truly tragic and shocking situation,, which while understandable, was perhaps losing direction as a thread.
Can we have a debate without sliding into personal abuse? Hope so.
As for proof, that will be hard to find, what is "proof" for one person-a new morning, a new baby, recovery from illness, answer to prayer, the kindness of strangers , will not constitute "proof" for others.
So can we say more than what is in each of us, can we apply inner feelings to the external world?
Discuss (or not)

I await proof which will prove there is no God, not quotes from prolific writers though, no different to historians views on wars is there ?

And Christian God leaves out those of the Jewish faith who believe in the same God as Christians