Extreme Religion

re Granjura's post yesterday 22.28 , about European countries taxing members of religious groups: we were once on holiday in Malta, watching an elaborate religious procession. Something to do with Mary. I got talking to a local and she said the priests came house to house insisting on donations to pay for it, which many could hardly afford.

Some of the figures (rounded up or down)
Fabric repairs and maintenance £8,000,
Council Tax £1,500,
Other building costs £30,000.
Ministries and Mission Allocation £61,000
Minister's expenses £1500
Pulpit supply £250
Other salary costs £8,000
Church office expenses £4,000
Donations to charities £2,000

I have dug out the 2014 accounts for my church (a suburban Church of Scotland) The turnover was about £133,000. That was raised by offerings, tax on giftaid, legacies, endowment income and "other".

Again, from discussions with our local Vicars in the UK, the fees charged for weddings and funerals, although welcome, only cover a very very small % of cost of salaries, vicarages, maintenance, etc, etc, etc.

Yes the Anglican Church of Wales charges as does the Anglican Church in England ,

The church does far more than hatch, match and dispatch

In the UK the Churches (Cof E at least) charge significant fees for their services. For a burial there is a grave fee (separate from the gravedigger fee), ministers fee, sometimes a fee for the diocesan board, and if used, organist and bell ringers fees.

Yes, I was thinking about the huge land and riches of the CofE (of course stolen from the Catholics by Henry the VIII - probably was a lot more important to him than Miss Boleyn)- and the Catholic Church is supported by the Vatican I suppose.

But when I lived in the UK, our local Vicars always said what a struggle it always was to find the finances to run their Parish. And just like here, the decision was made to seel the huge 18C Vicarage to release money- and a more modest home bought for the Vicar.

The Reformed Church here came about in the 1530 (our house, the Vicarage was built in 1587 - previously the Protestant Vicars were in digs in the village. And of course, as in Germany, the Protestant Church rose from nothing, owned nothing, no land, no riches, no housing- and was supported by the congregation and later the State. Our area was 90+ Protestant when I was a child- nowadays, Chruch goers are split 50/50 more or less- with an ever increasing % who do not belong to either Church or who have declared themselves non-believers (to avoid the tax).

In our Valley, 3 of 11 Vicarages have been sold- and number of Vicars cut by 50%- and they move the service from village to village. Our Church has a service about once every 3 months or so- and is therefore becoming a huge drain on the stretched Council budget (and tax payers' money- most of whom do not go to Chruch- but do use it for wedding and funerals).

granjura it would be interesting if it applied here, but as the C of E is a large land and property owner, it can be self sustaining. Presumably other denominations are supported by their congregations which seems fair to me.
I am sure all true believers give happily according to their means.
If we lived in a Moslem state run in the manner of the early Caliphs non Moslems would have to pay a lot more tax than Moslems, or be exiled!

Which church Granjura and which countries?

Thanks for your honesty annie. But you see, here and in many parts of Europe- you are asked whether you belong to a Faith/Church- and then the tax becomes compulsory. It does rather 'concentrates' the mind, or faith- as once you opt out, you opt out of your Church and its services too (weddings, funerals, etc).

I confess,i do not give my tithe to the church, I give to the church of my time but my ten per cent I give to charity, but I am not a cultural Christian

Ana, only asking because it is relevant to the discussion- after Annie's comment (eg people who have faith have to pay).

Of course, as is the case here, those who have a strong faith do pay the extra 2.3% tax, on top of normal taxes, for the running of their Church- but they are a very small minority.

Those who one might call 'cultural Christians' who do not have a strong faith and only go to Church for weddings and funerals and perhaps a baptism and the Christmas service, out of tradition rather than faith- have opted out of paying the tax in droves here - as the tax became optional rather than compulsory. I do believe few of those who profess to be Christians on uk censuses- would do so if it meant they had to pay an extra 2.3 or more percent on top of taxes.

I realise the concept is totally alien in the UK- but it is the norm in most European countries.

Sorry missed the question, a lens fell out it my specs last Tuesday and can't have appointment with optician until next Tuesday , reading iPad with one eye closed

In all honesty I cannot think of anything which would cause me to deny Christ and I have been tested, not as much as some and more than some , he died for me and I deny him for money? No

I think she has discussed the subject before.

granjura, who wants to deny their faith? Not a good idea. So why would anyone do it.

Why don't you start a thread on that subject, granjura? You might get more responses rather than asking the question in the middle of a discussion.

She was taught beliefs as facts - and that is dishonest.
Actually it isnt as they are facts. Though I appreciate where you are coming from.

We were able to explain to her that many people believe many different things and that she needed to make up her own mind when she was older and had had a chance to hear other views, but that she must show respect to all.
Nothing wrong in that.

here is no need to be afraid of non-aligned schools
It is not about fear. See point one.

how many Christians in the UK would deny their faith, if, like in many countries- they would then be charged 2 to 3 % EXTRA TAX on their tax bill? Discuss.

I'll ask again- in hope.

Answer to soon - yes I did. She was taught beliefs as facts - and that is dishonest. We were able to explain to her that many people believe many different things and that she needed to make up her own mind when she was older and had had a chance to hear other views, but that she must show respect to all.

There is no need to be afraid of non-aligned schools - they do not belittle religion; they just do not favour one; and they are clear about the difference between faith and fact.

If each has respect for the other, then no harm is going to come to a child who is educated in a school which is not formally aligned with a religious faith. If there is no respect, then a school which denigrates other or no faiths will do harm.

There is not a chance of an agreement on this , faith is a belief and atheism is a belief ,I have experienced quite a few years in a country where Christianity is dying and atheism is growing . The only thing one can hope for is respect from both those of faith and no faith

I have asked this so many times, without ever getting anyone to reply (I think)- so back to the idea of

'if you have faith you pay'

how many Christians in the UK would deny their faith, if, like in many countries- they would then be charged 2 to 3 % EXTRA TAX on their tax bill? Discuss.

Anniebach When you say that in separating school from a specific faith you "must accept my child being taught by an atheist who may tell them their faith is no different to believing in Father Christmas or the tooth fairy" you are displaying your prejudice against those who do not share your particular faith, and that at heart you don't believe that they can be trusted to give an unbiased general education.

The whole point of secular schools is that they should not be biased for or against religion. It should just be irrelevant to the non-religious facts that children are learning there and the teaching to read all texts carefully and to listen to all speakers and opinions carefully. That is not attacking faith or pushing lack of faith, it is allowing faith to have its own place in people's lives and hearts.

post to Luckygirl