From the Humanist Association - discuss

You started a thread asking how many would opt out of their religion if required to pay a tax last month, granjura. I think it ran its course...

That's cleared it up, I wasn't sure if I had joined in a discussion on it here or in bible study , it was just so familiar, thank you

As relevant then as it is now, hence the repeat. Thanks.

Certainly would separate the sheep from the goats - as it did here.

Tragically, those devout Christians who are my friends and neighbours, and with whom I work as a volunteer- now find themselves working harder and harder (and many are not young) having to fund-raise like crazy to keep their Church and the many fantastic activities going - whilst at the same time seeing those who do not pay and do not help- making demands on those services (weddings, funerals, home visits, bereavement, alcohol, depression, etc, counselling- reading for the blind, and so much more) whilst at the same time having the cheek and disrespect to say 'keep all that religious stuff out, won't you- not our thing?'. They try not to judge, try to keep smiling and paying through the nose, both in money and in work and time, but I know it riles and hurts deeply.

Using the Church and its staff and volunteers as an 'insurance policy' is amazingly disrespectful in this context, truly.

Amen.

granjura it seems to me that a number of the things that you object to about the practice of religion are really a matter for the personal conscience of other people. If someone chooses to act as a godparent without being a believer, it's their responsibility to carry out the duties. If people choose to marry in a religious ceremony, have their children baptised or hold a religious funeral for a family member, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. What can we really know about what people believe?

I agree with Lilygran.

As regards the thread. Is is not a moot point, now we have Free Schools, and there is always Home Ed which is only loosely supervised.

I am with lilygran on this. I think that religion is a matter for each individual and choices that might on the surface appear hypocritical may not be so to the person involved. Live and let live I think. It is up to the churches themselves to blow a fuse if they feel they are being exploited in some way.

Religion in churches is fine - enforced religion in state institutions is a trouble to me.

Sorry but not how a Christian should think surely ? , hurt because they are told keep that religious stuff out ? This is common if one works for a church , and riled ? Are they riled because they give money to their church and the church is used by people of little or no faith? They will spend their lives being hurt and riled because it happens everywhere and always will.

Hurt because someone has a funeral service , as the deceased couldn't speak how do they know what faith if any the deceased had

I am now curious if I was a sheep or a goat

They do try their best not to judge- but how would you feel- if your Church lost its funding from one day to the next- as people suddenly refuse to pay the Church tax. Suddenly, the Vicarages have to be sold, the Vicars and other support staff sacked, services cut, social acitivities for those that need it have to be curtailed, etc, etc- and you remain- as a small number of volunteers, with your Church having no lands and riches (as the CofE in England has (remember henry VII and all that- the riches are still there to soe extent- large portfolios, land, housing, etc and the RC certainly is very rich)- often elderly, left to fund-raise for it all- whilst others mis-use and do b.... all, and have the cheek to ask for religion to be kept out of it.

I am not one of them, as you well know- but I truly feel for them, and have absolute and total admiration for their patience and lack of judgement. I help as I can in my community- providing services and more as I can, as a non religious, and non Church attendee- they are always surprised as to why. And the answer is always, just makes sense to me. and what goes around comes around- and thank you for being so kind at the time for my parents. You don't have to be religious to be helpful and kind or have a strong moral framework- whatever that is. As well you know, I am sure.
So you prefer to 'attack' those who actually defend and respect those who are sincerely religious- than those who mis-use to their own end, and even teach? That's fine- strange morality though, I'd say.

I have huge respect for my Christian friends here, and am glad that they think that having Church schools is an anathema and divisive. I'll stick with them (in quiet respect).

Hurt is not the right word. But if you were a Vicar, and people constantly said to you 'I want your services and the use of the Church- but I want nothing to do with your beliefs, and I am certainly not paying for them' day in day out- how would you feel?

You'd try and not judge, you'd smile and nod, and get on with the job (and yet, and yet ... come on... they are human too, Christians and all).

Live and let live- is indeed a wonderful motto I can totally adhere too.

But I was always told that your freedom needs to stop when it affects others negatively and hurts them. Having a divisive school system negatively affects those left out- and eventually negatively affects the whole of society- and this hurts all- as when a society becomes so divided, in the 'haves' and the 'have nots' and mobility is perceived to be practically impossible -then what. Keep our children and grandchildren behind electric fences in cotton-wool?

I wonder what Jesus would say about that? Good that the Bishop of Oxford and others are aware that holding on to privileges is damaging, to the Church, and to society at large. Bravo.

Amen.

Using the Church and its staff and volunteers as an 'insurance policy' is amazingly disrespectful in this context, truly.
Rubbish!!
And how rude!

Anyway it costs a lot to get married in church, it is not free, nor are baptisms or funerals.

And our church is lovely and welcoming to everyone, including those who may have strayed or who don't go very often.
They must be true Christians here.
What did Jesus say about the lost sheep and the prodigal son?
Don't welcome them? I think not.

Certainly would separate the sheep from the goats - as it did here.

So which are welcome (or not) at your church then?

All of course, in a very open and ecumenical way. Not MY Church though, clearly.

I dislike the way in which some threads deteriorate into personal attacks and I try and avoid contributing. On this occasion I feel it necessary to say that I feel you are being judgemental granjura, despite your protestations to the contrary. You are judging people who turn to the Church for significant occasions yet who aren't what you see as either committed or genuine Christians.
The vicar who Christened by children and buried my parents has become a friend. He is now a retired Dean. He was involved in the application process for the children's application to our local C of E high school. The school is sought after and attending for a year (as you suggested would suffice in an earlier post) just wouldn't do here. It's necessary to attend Church every week for the 11 years before you make the application. In addition, it's expected the children will be involved in Church groups and activities and that parents will contribute to Church life. His view about families who drop off attendance once the children get their place is simple. He says if we haven't offered enough to keep them in the Church over that 11 years, we need to look at ourselves rather than Judge. His view also, is that people attend Church regularly at different times in their lives, they may dip in and out of regular attendance but their faith may remain steadfast or suffer crises of confidence and belief, as indeed he readily admits, has his own faith.

Our local Church is struggling to raise the funds to maintain the wonderful building. Many Church buildings have been sold in order to maintain those that are more regularly attended and to support other Church charitable works.

Live and let live, surely that's what we all want. Our local Muslim community have been fund raising and supporting flood victims alongside other charities. That's what faith is about surely.

What denomination are you speaking of Granjura please?

I fully understand the church's role in UK educational history. Part of that history means that it has, whether people like it or not, created a false 2-tier system in many areas and in many people's thinking.

If I was i/c education I would make all schools community schools and support all schools to become as good as the best! I would have a school week that ended early on a Friday so that religious or otherwise (e.g. Humanist) organisations could provide spiritual / faith /values sessions and activities. This would give teachers time for their planning , preparation and assessment without the need for cover staff. Two birds/one stone

Not because I do not like or disrespect people of faith. I have friends and family, whom I love, from many different belief systems and none! I would not dream of preventing people from worshiping with co-believers.

I simply think it would be healthier for state institutions, which schools are, not to link to any particular religion. It works well in other countries where Christianity thrives!

jingle Sadly I have to say that in my experience there are very many families who only want their children to mix with children from a similar background to their own and reject schools not because of the quality of the education or the results but because the school serves a community that they do not wish their child to associate with.

"At best a faith-based education system is a wasted opportunity to bring children from different backgrounds together; at worst it is fuelling segregation and allowing children from a very young age to live parallel lives to their peers from other faiths or ethnicities."

From an NSS blog.

It does seem this has moved from the role of the Anglican Church in England to Muslims , there is no segregation in Anglican schools

One day it will happen thatbags and then it will seem strange to people that faith schools ever existed! Roll on that day.

Are there any schools that do not have children from all faiths?
I do not know of any CofE school that only takes CofE, or any catholic school that only takes catholics. Even they bring children from different backgrounds together.
Maybe free schools do, but there are fortunately not many of them.

The high school I went to was a Church Schools school. It was CofE.

I have just looked at their RE syllabus, and this is part of year 9.

"Pupils will consider how religious belief affects people’s images of God and will be challenged to explain their own view of God. One unit will be devoted to issues of life, death and beyond with reference to the sanctity of life from the point of view of Humanist, Muslim and Christian perspectives. A further topic of study will consider why we suffer and how suffering affects belief in God.

Religious Studies includes learning about ourselves and others. The beliefs and values studied are the foundation of personal choice. Such study is personally challenging and is relevant to many aspects of learning and achievement throughout life."

Other religions are studied in other years.
It certainly wasn't like that when I was there, Christianity and that was it.

Not disagreeing at all DJ, Iam, Jalima, AB and others, that was my experience 30+ years ago in S London, but alas, teacup........storm
There will always people who cannot see the former without whipping up the latter

50 years ago my two youngest siblings were educated in an Anglican school, our father was preacher in the baptist church , also in the same school , three RC children who could have had a bus pass to travel three miles to the RC school, their parents chose the Anglican school , no segregation, no ghetto, just children receiving a good education . Fifty years on I see children not only of different faiths but also from India and Tibet in Anglican and RC schools

Yes, there are some C of E schools which have a very high proportion of pupils of other religions.

As for separating the 'sheep from the goats' it presumably means that those who can afford to pay the 3% tax can proclaim their Christianity in your country, but the poor who may not be able to afford it have to hide their faith under a bushel.
Truly a strange system.
And someone who may have wavered for years in their faith would be frowned upon for wanting a Christian funeral service - as an insurance, just in case there is a Heaven.

rosesarered why?