From the Humanist Association - discuss

I understand why some atheists want to stop hymn singing etc, but what of people of faith who want it to continue ?

Prayers said at council meetings, some may want it stopped , some may want it to continue

"Why should children of faith be taught by atheists ?" It depends what they are teaching. Is it only people of faith who are competent to teach mathematics?

Are people of a different faith (or none) not to be trusted with the education of children in non-religious subjects? That is to insult their integrity, and I am sure no-one would do that.

There is no need for those who do profess and practice a faith to do so behind closed doors, either. Having no prayers said out loud at, say. a LA meeting to decide on local matters doesn't prevent those attending from using their convictions to influence their opinions on what should be done, or from everyone knowing that they are influenced. Not having those beliefs doesn't prevent any other members of the meeting from using their own ethical convictions on which to base their decisions either.

In many councils they have a pre-meet for those who do want to say a prayer to help and guide them make the right decisions but it is not part of the official meeting.

The place for saying prayers and singing religious songs is with others who share your faith. I am not trying to stop people worshiping..just don't want them toexpect me to have to be a part of it!

Elegran, no reason why children of faith should be taught by atheists and no reason why teachers with faith should not teach children of no faith

Penstemmon, no one is forced to pray or sing hymns so they needn't be part of it

If a prayer or hymn is an agenda item on a meeting and I am expected to attend then I am being expected to participate or be minuted as late.

I think the good compromise of non agenda payers shows thoughtful common sense, no-one is prevented from doing something they want to do and others do not have to participate artificially!

My biggest concern is the teaching of children in a compulsory setting. School (or home education) is a legal requirement and as such should be honest and have integrity. The teaching of any religion should begin with the statement "Christians/muslims, buddhists etc. believe...." - the subject should never be taught as fact in the same league as 2+2 =4.

No one can be forced to stand or kneel or utter a prayer

I took school assemblies for very many years and never lead a prayer or sang a Christian hymn but they were all mainly Christian in character

We had time to think about moral dilemmas silently and sang songs of friendship and wonder!

We all wanted to be kind to strangers, be good and honest people, be friendly, share , use our talents, fight the wrong doer so good prevailed, help those who were hungry, needed help etc etc. You do not have to have a religious faith to want or promote those ideals.

Anniebach Atheists and agnostics don't go knocking at people's doors handing out leaflets urging them to question their religious beliefs. I have never heard of a school where teachers who are non-believers force their non-belief onto their students.

In religious education classes, children are taught about the various religions of the world. As I said before, committed Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc., are at liberty to bring their children up in accordance with their religious beliefs and practices (provided they are lawful) and to attend a place of worship as often as they wish. Why is that not enough?

We have a situation now where significant numbers of children go to schools almost entirely made up of children from one particular religion - Christian, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, etc., etc., and this is an increasing phenomenon with the advent of "free" schools. This means that many children never mix with children from other, or no, faiths. I think this is divisive and not conducive to a harmonious society.

Why do you feel it is appropriate for Council meetings to be preceded by prayers?

Eloethan, the entire Christian community are not Mormons or JW's

I assume you switch the queens Christmas speech off ?

I think that is the nub of it, Penstemmon We can discuss this until the cows come home, but those who live all corners of their lives as they believe that their religion enjoins them to will not agree that things which are common to all people - all children if we are talking of school and all adults as well - can be conducted without referring them to their God.

But there are many ways of approaching God, and there are ways of living a good life which can be achieved without religion.

A maths teacher with faith can teach children that without reference to religion. A teacher without faith can teach geography without mentioning God or atheism.

A local school has a catchment area which includes children from all kinds of faiths, backgrounds and birthplaces. What a local authority school tries to teach them are the academic basics and a knowledge of the world as it is and was, and the bones of living together in a wider community without conflict.

Each denomination or faith has its own specific ideals. a teacher of a mixed class cannot emphasise one over the other. That is a matter for family and congregation.

If a council had a lot of Muslim councillors, would it be right for there to be prayer mats and an Islamic prayer to begin the proceedings? Would it be OK for a Satanist councillor to start the meeting by appealing to Beelzebub to guide everyone's hearts in making decisions?

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you don't want other partisan modes of worship to be imposed, what right do you have to vaunt your own, however excellent it may be?

re "Faith" schools - if there are so many non-believers around, why do many parents go to great lengths to get their child into a faith school?
Moving house, going to church, getting baptised etc.
This was from a programme I saw last year, or the year before, so might not be relevant now.

I assume that the reason some faith schools have many applications is the academic reputation of the individual school. If a faith school were very pious but was known to be hopeless at actually teaching anything, would there still be parents anxious to get their children into it? Well, perhaps they would in some cases, if they valued the specific faith aspect above the broader education that their child was getting.

Of 22 schools of different faiths re-inspected by HMI's in november of last year, 12 were deemed "inadequate" www.gov.uk/government/.../HMCI__advice_note_BSI.pdf

(Previous checks of these private faith schools had been carried out by the Bridge Schools Inspectorate (BSI), an independent inspectorate which had inspected about 50 private Muslim and Christian schools.

Independent schools do not come under the same Ofsted process as state schools, with inspections being carried out by independent agencies such as the Independent Schools Inspectorate and the School Inspection Service.

Ofsted had raised concerns about the "quality of BSI inspection" and, this autumn, Ofsted took over its inspection responsibilities.

One school in this current wave of Ofsted inspections - Manchester Islamic High School for Girls - was rated outstanding.)

Elegran, it's the PM who claims this is a Christian country, I disagree , it's a country were there are Christians who have always been allowed to practice their faith in freedom - until recently , now whilst there is still the freedom to be a Christian the freedom to express their faith is being curtailed

If Muslims were to pray at the start of a meeting I wouldn't have a problem , I wouldn't join in but would be respectful and remain seated and silent

Anniebach I don't understand what the queen's speech has got to do with it.

Anniebach How is the freedom to express your faith being curtailed?

You haven't explained why it is appropriate for a prayer to precede a Council meeting.

Eleothan, why not?

Been at the surgeon's in town to decide the date for my knee replacement (22nd March)- and am a bit shocked to read this thread- especially Alea's accusation - as she takes exception to me calling Justin Welby disdainful. Where on earth have I done that, Alea, pray tell?

AnnieB, no way am I expecting people to keep their faith private by 'hiding it away' - of course, not at all. People of all faiths should have total freedom to worship, at home or in Church (Mosque, Temple, wherever they choose)- I meant 'private' as not in institutions, Government, Court of Law or indeed school.

Just as LuckyG- I don't mind at all if good teachers are Christian, or Muslim, as she says 'of any faith or none' as long as they do not push their religion or indoctrinate in any way. Just as I would object totally if any teacher would mock or deride any religious person, and push their humanism, agnosticism or atheism on children either.

Our institutions should not be strongly influenced by any religion imho. And the figures in OP show that this is even more relevant now- as figures clearly show (even if the figures are somewhat exagerated, and I have no evidence of that).

Why not? (prayer before Council meeting) - because as probably the great majority present are non-believers, or believers of other faiths- a Christian prayer becomes either bizarre, non-sensical or hypocritical. As a Councillor, (which I am, but not in UK) it would make me feel very uncomfortable and cringe. I would consider it truly disrespectful vis-à-vis the Christian present (which is why I would not get married, buried or be a god parent, in Church- out of respect).

I don't understand why people who deny prayer has any meaning get so het up about other people praying in their presence! If it doesn't mean anything, what does it matter? If you're travelling abroad and go to visit an ancient place of worship, do you make a fuss if local people are praying there? Do people picket Stonehenge at the Soltices? I think it's yet another back door attack on Christianity; it's Christian prayer people keep objecting to, not Jewish, Moslem, Hindu or Buddhist (or Druid or Wiccan).

There was a big discussion about this ( prayers before Council meetings) in Bideford ( local Gnetters may remember this.)Of course there should not be prayers before a meeting, a council meeting has nothing to do with religion and is purely secular ( or should be.)This goes for ANY religion .

Lilygran, you mis-understand what I am saying, really:

I don't understand why people who deny prayer has any meaning get so het up about other people praying in their presence!

I have absolutely NO problem with people praying in my presence. We take part in lots of activities where people pray here- and we bow our heads and quietly wait, in respect. It means nothing to me, but I truly respect that it means a great deal for most present (we host our local elderly for luncheon once a month- and the Vicar always addresses all too after the prayer).

What I would strongly object to, as a Councillor about to make decisions- is to be FORCED to take part- and to see other Councillors of different faiths (and in Leicester we certainly had many)- have to do so too. This especially, as, if a census was taken- probably only a small minority are practising Christians, and a smaller minority still regularly attend Church services.

All the Vicars I have spoken to, both here and in UK- prefer people to respect their faith and not pretend or worse, to use their services knowing full well they are not believers. Which is more respectful? A person who says 'no I will not be God Parent, because I will not make promises I will not keep' or a person who says 'yeah, I'll do it- but it's all nonsense and I'll keep fingers crossed behind my back when I make the promise'.?

You are surely not 'forced' to take part? You can stand or sit quietly and wait, surely? If the prayer means nothing to all those present, they could vote not to have prayers, couldn't they? And incidentally, the complaint that people of other religions might find prayer unacceptable isn't very compelling. In my experience, people of faith are quite tolerant of other people's prayers.