From the Humanist Association - discuss

PS you don't have to be a Christian to promise to bring the child up in the Christian faith and you are making the statements of faith on behalf of a child being baptised. If they are old enough, they make the statements themselves. No need for crossed fingers.

Yes, again- I get that. But prayers should not be an integral part of non religious officialdom and Government- why on earth should it be, taking into account the facts given in my previous post? Councillors are elected, by the people, to represent their interest in local GVT- and this rôle has nothing to do with religion, at all.

It rather implies that they need God's guidance to make the 'right' decision. Those who would like God's guidance in their political rôle can ask for it quietly in their heart and soul- and do not need to flaunt it and expect others to par-take. In which case, others could ask for time to pray to their own God, and for the others to sit quielty and respectfully to that too. And then the Humanists could ask for time to explain why they will make their decision according to their hearts too and with the facts and knowledge they have gathered. And then anarchists will demand time to say it's all nonsense anyhow. LOL.

Which would surely be hypocritical anyway, for an atheist.

Referring to 'finger crossing'.

Totally agree- which is why I would not do it, ever. And also out of respect for Christian presents.

Lilygran- please provide me with links and quotes from any of the Christian Churches, please, to the effect that a God (!) parent does not have to be a believer and Christian, please. How can a person make a promise to bring up a child in a faith they do not understand nor believe in. Sorry, but this is nonsense.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

This is the official text from the Anglican Church:

In the christening service, you will make some big promises to support your godchild throughout their life. You could talk to your own vicar about what these promises mean, or join with your godchild’s parents when they explore what a christening means. If you’re wondering what these promises might look like in practice, or how you can begin, explore our links for some simple ideas.

These are the first things you’ll be asked in the christening service:-

“Will you pray for them, draw them by your example into the community of faith and walk with them in the way of Christ?”
“Will you care for them, and help them to take their place within the life and worship of Christ’s Church?”

To the questions above, the parents and godparents answer: “With the help of God we will”.

You will then be asked some questions which you answer on behalf of a child who is too young to answer for themselves:

You will be asked to turn away from all things that are against God – the wrong in our own lives and to stand against the wrong in the world.
You will then be asked to turn positively towards Jesus, the companion and guide for the amazing journey ahead.

These are all big questions and big promises, so you might like to take time to explore them for yourself.

Tricia- would you really prefer that people mock and deride, pretend and disrespect- become vague cultural christians. Not my idea of respect, sincerely.

granjura, you have missed my point.

" When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites! They love to stand up and pray in the houses of worship and on the street corners, so that everyone will see them, I assure you they have already been paid in full. But when you pray, go to your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what you do in private, will reward you."

If it was good enough for Jesus…

Sorry Tricia- perhaps you could explain then. Sometimes hard to get the point with a short comment. Thanks.

Absent, spot on, thanks.

In the R. Catholic Church:

Q. 1. To qualify as Godparent, does the person have to meet certain requirements?

A. 1. Yes! Not everyone qualifies to be a Godparent. The Catholic Church provides a detailed guideline that must be obeyed. "To be admitted to undertake the office of Sponsor, a person must:" [Canon Law # 874.1] a. "be appointed by the candidate for baptism, or by the parents or whoever stands in their place, or failing these, by the parish priest or the minister; to be appointed the person must be suitable for this role and have the intention of fulfilling it;" [Canon Law # 874.1.1]

b. "be not less than 16 years of age, unless a different age has been stipulated by the diocesan Bishop, or unless the parish priest or the minister considers that there is a just reason for an exception to be made;" [Canon Law # 874.1.2]

c. "be a catholic who has been confirmed and has received the blessed Eucharist, and who lives a life of faith which befits the role to be undertaken;" [Canon Law # 874.1.3]

d. "not labour under a canonical penalty, whether imposed or declared;" [Canon Law # 874.1.4]

e. "not be either the father or the mother of the person to be baptised." [Canon Law # 874.1.5]

f. "A baptised person who belongs to a non-catholic ecclesial community may be admitted only in company with a catholic Sponsor, and then simply as a witness to the baptism." [Canon Law # 874.2]

I don't see how granjura, you can be 'forced' to take part if others at a council meeting are praying. On this thread you have expressed the respect you feel towards people of any faith. That hasn't stopped me developing the impression that you consider many people who claim to have a faith to be hypocrites.
I share the view expressed by many on this thread that the UK would benefit from the separation of state and faith. I'd prefer there not to be faith schools and feel genuine concern about the increase in free schools, as well as some elements of home educators where creationism or the imposition of bigoted views of people of other faiths seem to be increasing. Those issues seem to me to be a very far cry from many of the traditions in the UK, which may seem outdated but do reflect the cultural heritage of the country.

I find it odd that you don't remember your own words, granjura

Justin Welby's quotation in this article is quite something, too. 'The culture has become anti-Christian, whether it is on matters of sexual morality, or the care for people at the beginning or the end of life,' he told the meeting in Canterbury, alluding disdainfully to our tolerant liberal society's progressive attitudes to same-sex relationships, assisted dying, and abortion

This is where you called him "disdainful", gj, in your initial post.

Given that you live in Switzerland, you seem very "het up" about "our institutions"
I get the sense of much ado about an issue which has been raised with the express intention of shooting it down not unlike a row of ducks at a funfair.

This ia quote, clearly, and not my words, as you well know.

I am British, and spend part of my life in the UK. I may well return to the UK at some point- and with our adult children, and our grand-children and much family and many friends there, and certainly a part of our heart there, as well as all my adult life, and his whole life- why are you so surprised I am interested in what happens in the UK. This is why I am on GN. I've explained that many, many times- so it is getting to be a bit tedious to have to do so again, no. My grandchildren are in a CofE school, just as mine were- because the LOCAL STATE SCHOOL is a CofE school- and not by choice. We've been over that several times too. It is not fair that local parents should have to take their children out of the area, away from friends, and transported there and back + clubs, etc- in order to avoid a religious school. What choice is that, pray tell?

You could even say, that having had to Swear my Allegiance to our Queen, under Oath- makes me even more so ( ;) )

I am not, and have never been, part of the Humanist Assoc btw.

granjura has on many occasions said that she is British, that she has friends and relatives in the UK and that she has lived in the UK for many years.

Even if that were not the case, I've seen several comments on Gransnet about the way other countries are run and why not? Are only people who live in the UK allowed to make comments about it? There are religious and secular states all round the world and so it is a principle we are talking about as much as what happens in the UK.

It would be nice if people could present a sound argument and not resort to being unpleasant.

Well I am sorry if I appeared to be unpleasant, but I had no way of knowing the comment about Justin Welby was a quote (reference? Quotation marks?) or indeed from whom. To say "Justin Welby's quote" if that is what you meant, means a quotation by JW and this clearly is not.
I note I was not aone in thinking the description "disdainful" was from the OP or in defending Welby.
As to the rest, I do not wish to get involved in a hatchet job on any religion. We have an amazing and enviable degree of religious freedom in this country, and if France's legislation on laicisation (?) is anything to go by, it creates many more problems for minority religious groups than it solves for the Catholic members of the population. Listen to last Monday's "Beyond Belief" Radio 4 if you are unconvinced.

This is the article which mentions the percentage of the population attending church on any one Sunday. I won't go into the arguments for disestablishment of the C of E, but I do consider that the article makes an unanswerable case for it.

Thank you anno. I thought, and obviously I was wrong- that the title 'Form the Humanist Association' with the text following, would make it clear it was a quotation from an article- and not my own. Sorry if that was not clear.

Eloethan, thank you. As I have said before, how long do you have to live in the UK, as a British Citizen- before being allowed to comment or care about it. So many complaints about 'foreigners' not integrating - but when they do ... tell them its none of their business. Funny in a way, that, no.

I often do wonder why other people join GN. For some, clealy, it is for advice, often in a difficult situation. For some, it is probably for friendship- perhaps due to loneliness, for any reason.

For me, the only reason is because I still feel so passionately about the country that became mine and where I lived for 39 years- all my adult life really. The fact I now live abroad (my native country, yes)- makes little difference. In fact it does make a big difference. There are very few people here with whom I can talk about England- as they do not have experience of its people, places, foods, culture, politics (inlcuding the offcial rôle of CofE and the FPP 'non democratic' system) institutions like the NHS or our (yes, our) unique education system (both with all their +s and also, lets be honest, -s).... As said, we may well be back at some point, but even we we do not, we are very frequent visitors, and all our nearest and dearest are there- with their life influenced by the above- especially our grandchildren.

Will end with a short conversation I had with GS over Christmas, he is 9 and goes to a CofE school (yes their local school- no choice) : 'Granny, to your believe in God?' me 'no F, I do not. Why are you asking?' He: 'sister (6) believes in all that stuff they tell us all the time in school- it gets ever so awkward you know'. Me: don't spoil things for her, and just listen quietly and nod'. He nods and smile- and life goes on.

Namaste, and as Dave Allen said 'may your God go with you'

I firmly believe in freedom to worship as people wish, and also think that RE, as in religious education, not Bible Studies, should be on the curriculum as a means of explaining belief systems to our children. I do however do not approve of religious schools whether they be CofE, Catholic, Muslim or Jewish or any other. If parents wish to have their children instructed in their faith then this should be done out of usual school hours. My senior school had a high percentage of Jewish pupils and some of them, especially the boys as they approached barmitzvah attended evening classes. i think it is arrogant to state that only Judea/Christian teachings are suitable as a foundation for general behaviour and law making. On a personal note, I deeply resent the mandatory singing of Jerusalem at the start of WI meetings ( and God Save the Queen at the end) so I compromise by standing with the others and not singing either song.

I think we should keep religion out of education. I felt so sorry for the three or four children of 'other faith' families at my junior school who were not allowed (by their faith) to join in school assemblies or parties at Christmas or school outings. They were ostracised and labelled 'odd' from the start. It is useful for the whole school to gather together regularly so that notices can be given out and so on but this need not be a religious gathering. As a poster above says, religion can be acknowleged in the home but it should be kept out of school. I agree with mumofmadboys' post, though, that many more of us than attend church services hold a residual belief - and thank God for that!

Impossible to be a godparent unless one is a Christian ,

When are people forced to pray and where ? Do they have a gun in their back? What's wring with remaining silent, I don't sing the UK national anthem but I have respect for those who do, so I stand and remain silent