From the Humanist Association - discuss

But thatbags the head of the CofE is looked upon as all that's good no matter she says her faith has guided her and strengthened her .

I didn't say all Muslim children I did say many and I believe this

Luckygirl I'm sure you don't mean what your comment implies. Faith isn't 'taught as fact' it's taught as faith. The historical aspects of faith are taught as history, the literary aspects are taught as poetry or narrative or whatever, the doctrinal aspects are taught as doctrine, ritual as ritual and so on. And because you don't agree with the faith, it doesn't follow that it is wrong.

Perhaps someone can give an explanation ? If Anglican Church schools are teaching children - what thatbags refers to as faith stuff - how come the number of parents trying to get their children into these church schools is increasing, but the number of Christians in this country are decreasing

I asked that question too, Annie, last Wednesday at 2.46pm.
Big storm in a teacup.

That is an excellent question. And the answer is probably very complex indeed, and has little to do with religion.

Bags, I agree.

So Muslim children in Wales are happily sent by their parents to the CofW school. But if in England Faith school were to disappear, the children would be kept at home. Confused.com.

What is for sure, is that if Christians of the RC and CofE denominations continue to have separate Faith schools, Muslims and others will insist on having their own. However, if all schools are secular- as is the case in most of Europe- then it is clear that Muslims do and will send their children there.

So sorry Tricia , I will use my elder granddaughters excuse - not my fault if I have the memory of a goldfish

But it doesn't square does it , church schools are full, churches are often almost empty unless a festival

As long as parents have a choice between sink schools and Faith Schools (for umpteen reasons which have nothing to do with religion)- they will choose the schools which will have the best facilities to help their children along (and lie, pretend, scam their way into this- there is much evidence of this- in my family too. Like buying property and pretend they live there, have sham baptism and attendance for as long as it takes, etc). Some CofE schools are also used as free prep schools for private secondary schools- with the curriculum biased towards preparation for entrance exams, etc.

Granjura, I never speak for an entire country just my own experience and my own views, I did not say Muslim children in Wales attend church in Wales schools , I know of children of faiths who attend church schools which is not their faith.

Yet Granjura you want to close good schools because you personally have a problem with faith.

Did the lies and cheating in your family take place in the UK or another country?

Lilygran - I do mean exactly what my comment implies (well- more than implies - states) - it is taught as fact. I have watched teachers and vicars say to school children that Jesus rose from the dead, for instance, when what they should be saying is "Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead." I would have no problem at all with that.

There is an important difference between the two statements; given that in other lessons they are told that 2 + 2 makes 4. Thye have n means then of distinguishing faith from fact. The two statements are totally different - one is belief and the other is fact. It happens all the time in faith schools. The important preface that "this is what X believe" is omitted all the time. I am sure you know that.

You are quite right that because I do not share a faith does not indeed mean that it is wrong; but I do recognise that it is belief and not fact and to say otherwise to our children is a breach of trust.

I don't think jura wants to close good schools. I think she just wants those schools to not focus on faith, nor for their pupils' faith or lack of it to play any part whatsoever in whether they get a place at the school. In other words to make the good faith schools into good secular schools so that a good secular school is available to every child.

This does not disadvantage anyone who has a faith or wants their child to grow up with the same faith. Parents and religious leaders can do the teaching of religious doctrine and dogma and whatever and leave schools to do general education.

How anyone feels this would be an unfair system is beyond me.

Actually, it's the parents' faith or lack of it that seems to play a part in some schools (getting kids baptised, etc, to increase their chances of going to a particular school). I don't think primary school children can be said to 'have' a religious faith of any kind.

I do not want good schools to close because I have a problem with faith- Where on earth did you get that from? For the umpteenth time today, I have no problem wiht religion- but only with the divisiveness it creates, which exarcebate social divisions and poverty. I could quote so many articles to that effect- an excellent one by Polly Toynbee and the Bishop of Oxford who himself agrees that Faith schools are unfair and prevent mobility of the poorest.

In the UK of course- it does not apply in other countries of Europe because schools are secular mostly- certainly where I grew up and where I now live- the question just does not arise.

I know people who have had their children baptised just to be on the 'list', then attended their local Church for as long as necessary 1 year approx before first child started school, fundraising too. And I know of several who lied about address, giving a grand-parent address, or even buying properties in the catchement area and pretending to live there, visiting several times a week- then re-sell at a good profit once the children we in the school, and more. The system encourages deception and 'fraud' - and parents do this NOT for religion, but the only alternative is a sink school. As Polly says, parents choose to 'pray' instead of 'pay'.

Luckygirl you miss my point. Non-Christians, or Christians working in a multi faith context might well say, 'Christians believe' but surely it's perfectly reasonable for Christians teaching in a Christian school to refer to central elements of their faith as matters of faith? Unless you think Christians don't really believe it?

So church schools are to blame for some parents who lie, this means shops are to blame for shop lifters, banks for bank robbers , this sounds so fifties sorry , when girls got themselves pregnant and a woman beaten up was asking for it

Some CofE schools are also used as free prep schools for private secondary schools- with the curriculum biased towards preparation for entrance exams, etc

All state schools are subject to OFSTED inspections, SATS testing and the National Curriculum.
So "Private prep schools? " Hardly.
Anyway I thought your objection was to the teaching indoctrination of religion? Not the academic standards.
I think we need to bear in mind term "faith" school covers everything from village C of E First Schools to Jewish schools to extremist Muslim schools in certain of our cities. As such it is an emotive term. Before the blessed Tony Blair gave the go ahead to faith schools of every hue, we had some excellent primary and secondary C of E schools, usually sought after for the quality of the education, the caring environment, the pastoral care and the standards. Many of my DDS' classmates 30+ years ago in their S London church primary school were of Asian parentage, whether recent or second generation immigrants I have no way of knowing. It was a genuinely mixed school -socially too. That was not "medieval", that was not indoctrination, the annual Christingle service or Nativity Play at the parish church in no way segregated or indoctrinated the children. Many of my atheist friends expressed no objection, as most of us, practising Christians or not, enjoy a children's nativity play.
Thanks to Tony Blair's "inclusivity"(?) the baby has now been thrown out with the bath water, but why the tub thumping alarmist accusations of the "dreadful things" that go on, or the nigh-criminal lengths parents will apparently go to?(Also the subject of a long and tedious thread some time ago)
IMHO emotions are being whipped up, , harsh words spoken and well, it sounds a lot like <stirring>

Thank you thatBags- spot on.

What I would dream of, is good schools for all children, irrespective of social class or religion. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

If as it has been claimed on another thread that many children are brought up in bad homes we need more church schools if as been claimed here they are taught about faith which means the teachings of Christ

Well said Alea

bags there's been a considerable body of research into children's perceptions of faith which would suggest that many do have strong perceptions of transcendence. I'm coming round more and more to the idea that some individuals have this strongly developed sense of faith and others don't. It isn't a matter of thinking about it and weighing up the facts and proof, belief doesn't operate in that way. Perhaps it's brain chemistry?

A system that leaves parents with the choice of 'lying and deceiving to get children in a good school' or sending child to a sink school- is not responsible for the lies and deception, but certainly encourages it. Many Senior clerics acknowledge this, and accept that Church schools have a much lower % of children from deprived backgrounds of every kind.

You will continue to twist my words and my meanings of course.

Where all the children go to the local school- parents with influence, parents able to support those schools in any way- fight to ensure their children get the best education and care possible- and this ensures all the children benefit, not just their own. I see this here all the time- the professionals, business people, millionaires and all, send their kids to the local school- allowing children of all backgrounds to mix and grow together- and much better mobility and long-term social cohesion. Same in Northern Europe countries- brilliant.

The assumption that a Christian home is automatically a better home, is just so wrong and prejudiced. We need children to grow in a strong moral framework I sincerely agree. Watching their parents cheat and lit in groves to fraudulently get kids into Church school (and the children do have to be taught to confirm and repeat the lies, of course) is hardly conducive, is it?

Do you not think that the children who are told to lie about where their live get a good Christian or moral example from their parents?

No senior clerics I know believe as the senior clerics in your country believe , and I am speaking of three arch bishops and several bishops

I think that the preface "Christians believe" is a necessity in ALL schools (Christian or not) when these matters are being discussed. Anything less is an act of dishonesty.

A system that leaves parents with the choice of 'lying and deceiving to get children in a good school' or sending child to a sink school

No, I cannot accept this.
A person takes responsibility for their own actions, not blaming the "system" That is dishonest
"Honest, m'lud, I had to nick that telly/loot that shop/break that speed limit/ break into that house/fiddle my tax return, * because of the system* "
Not my morality.
And in fact this is totally at variance with your second point,because if, instead of ducking and diving and manipulating the system, committed parents got on to the governing body, combined their talents and thinkng and exerted pressure on the Head, governors and staff (I have seen this done) a "failing" school (we do not use term "sink" because of social connotations ) can and will be turned around.