From the Humanist Association - discuss

Of course I am talking about Senior Clerics in the UK AnnieB- (as said, the whole discussion does not apply to where I live and most and perhas all of Europe- all children here go to the same school as other children in the area, poor, rich, from religious homes of all faiths and those from non religious home- that is the law and there is NO other options).

This from an article in the Guardian by Polly Toynbee, re the Bishop of Oxford in this case, You can find lots more:

So it is a great step forward that the Bishop of Oxford, new chair of the church's education board, accepts the facts and proposes only 10% of places be reserved for the faithful: "We may not get the startling results that some church schools do because of getting some very able children, but we will make a difference to people's lives."

He echoes a strong strand among liberal vicars uncomfortable at running schools excluding the most needy. But will it happen? Remember the almighty row from Catholics and the Daily Mail at a failed Labour plan to reserve just a quarter of places for non-churchgoers. It may be far too late. The bishop admits he has no power, since governors run and often own faith schools, while parents in pews expect a place in reward for their prayers. Will the other 90% of children need to prove no CofE connections? That 10% selection will still be enough to make these desirable schools, so parents will still move into their catchments. (end of quote).

Yes, some CofE primary schools, follow the National Curriculum and also ensure that the children are well prepared for the entrance exams to selective secondary (Grammar) schools.

FAiths schools: now even the Church agree they are unfair- is the title of the article mentioned above.

Your description of your ideal "local school" describes exactly our village First School (Cof E) as were many if not most rural primaries in the past. All he children in the village aged 5-8 go to it. They are not all middle class white card carrying Anglicans, the little son of our new Asian village shopkeeper goes (Hindu, I believe) and walks up with my next door neighbour's little boy. We have "all sorts" plus an admixture from the neighbouring town because it is such a good little school with a flourishing PTFA and community use of the buildings.
Let's not be so negative.

.Granjura, Switzerland has church schools and private schools so not all children are given equal education

Annie - I wasn't critisicing you, only agreeing.
From my experience of faith schools, they have the courage of their convictions to promote a code of behaviour and approach to learning which leads to pupils with self respect, also to good academic results.

http://www.avenir-suisse.ch/en/49829/free-choice-of-schools-raises-educational-standards
And not all is perfect in Swiss education according to the article above.

My oldest DD attended a C of E infant school, and I did not notice any indoctrination or overt religious atmosphere in the school; I do not even know if the teachers were practising Christians. Then all three DC attended secular schools, they may have been secular but even so, they did all have links to the local church. The local RC primary school has, of course, very strong links to the church and there is an emphasis on religious education.

Two DGC attend a primary which is secular, but again, it has links to the local Anglican church. The other DGC attends a RC school which, although brief prayers are included each morning (generally praying that they are kind to each other) there is no overt indoctrination.

I did say I thought state education should be secular, but I don't think that most Anglican schools in this country place a huge emphasis on religion, they are popular because they offer a good standard of education.

This thread is like politics, we don't expect to change anyone's view, but at least it's something to chew over.If we really want to make sure that young Muslim people are not radicalised, then faith schools of all types would have to be abandoned in favour of secular ( again, not atheist!) primary and secondary schools.Boys and girls of all races and religions mixed together.Sounds good to me.It won't happen quickly, but in time, I think it will, and people in the future would wonder why it took so long.
Non Christian ( or lapsed Christians/ atheists/ agnostic) often queue to get their children into state church schools because they are known to be fairly strict and get better exam results, and that's why people lie and alter addresses etc.Nothing to do with religion.

Are children in CofE schools exposed to narrow religious teaching?
The Church considers it essential that children learn about the major faiths represented in Britain today as well as having a sound grounding in Christian faith and belief. Therefore, all RE syllabuses taught in church schools are multi-faith and require students to learn about at least the six major world faiths. The recent non-statutory Framework for RE reinforces this requirement.

Do CofE schools indoctrinate children?
Of course not. While Church of England schools naturally have a particular concern for enabling children to understand the Christian faith, especially as expressed in the Anglican Church, our schools are committed to nurturing, encouraging and challenging those of all faiths and none. Indoctrination is where only one point of view is represented as true and others are diminished or ignored. In our schools, good RE enables students to learn about Christianity and other faiths as part of their general education and also part of their own spiritual development.

Nevertheless, as in all schools, parents have the right to withdraw their children from RE and collective worship.

Not at all medieval

I think the Humanist Association is just doing a bit more 'Christian-bashing'.

At least there are no lions involved.

I'd say Amen to that- and leave this thread. If it served to make a few people think- then so be it.

Switzerland has always had private schools in Zurich and Geneva- for expats working there. As there are more and more expats in thos areas, many British, working in IT and banking and big business, in those towns and also tax havens like Zug- those parents are putting more and more pressure for more. I was talking about where I live, where expats are few, private schools extremely rare (I don't know a single child around here who goes to one- and one British School closed last year in the big town as there were no takers)- and NO religious schools, not one. And as a member of the local education board, I shall fight tooth and nail to keep it so -excellent schools for ALL the children, irrespective of social background, ehtnicity or religion, with all the better off and better educated parents supporting the system, not just for their children, but for all (there are a couple of famous ones in traditionally Catholic areas, one in Fribourg and one in St Maurice- I know of one child in the last 64 years who went there in the 50s. In fact, my country being so medieval and backward, with a long peasant tradition, means we are not saddled with religious division and tradition of private and divisive schools- and long may it last.

Amen, last post on this thread. No point going around in circles and having words and intentions twisted. Sad.

The puzzle for me is why parents jump through religious hoops to get their kids into a CofE school if religion has so little to do with being there.

I believe people who say many (possibly most) Anglican schools are simply good schools in all respects, but the puzzle remains: why is a certain amount of real or superficial religiosity apparently a requirement in so many cases? Or, if not an actual requirement, then something that will make a difference to your application?

x-ed posts jura.

Sound reasoning and common sense, Jalima, makes a nice change from the hectoring alarmist tenor of some posts. Good to see the facts as opposed to the prejudices. Thank you.

A lot of people like the morals of a Christian faith school. Another reason children are sent there.

Tricia, I didn't think for a second you were disagreeing with me

If things are really as jalima's post says (and I'm prepared to believe that they are), why is there resistance to non-religious schools where the same things are taught about religions as jal's post says are already taught?

Also, please, apply that to all faith schools, not just CofE ones. The only reason for having specific faith schools is to teach more about about a specific faith than about others, isn't it? If it isn't then faith schools are unnecessary by anyone's reckoning.

Which, in the end, is all people arguing for secular schools are saying: nothing unreasonable at all. Secularists argue for equality in schooling, nothing more and nothing less.

I honestly don't see any alarmist posts from anyone on here, no matter what they think about faith schools.Some of us would prefer all schools to be secular, others like the faith schools.It is not about 'knocking' religion, but about having the ideal of a completely mixed education, simple as that.

Good morals do not belong to Christianity. Children can be and are taught good morality anywhere and everywhere. Religion is not a requirement for that.

Not all schools are good schools sadly but church schools seem to have a very good standard, again only speaking for the church schools I have knowledge of not all teachers are church goers ,

I still believe we need more not less church schools and disagree they should be abolished because of other faiths . What a church school does get is support from the church community , we fund raise for ours, there is a pot where the staff can buy things a child may be in need of . We need to dwell less on church schools and accept they are part of a community , community supported schools

Jamila has summed it up better than I ever could

All schools, at least in the state sector, should be inclusive, not sectarian. Children benefit from being with others from different backgrounds, different religions and none.

So called "faith schools" are segregating children and attempting to indoctrinate them - teaching them that "we are right - they are wrong".

Children need to learn about a range of beliefs. If they come from a strongly religious family, they will get enough indoctrination at their church, mosque, synagogue or temple.

To understand the damage these schools do in dividing society Google the Accord Coalition and listen to its chairman Rabbi Jonathan Romain.

Lots would agree with you Varian me included, others would not.Looks like one of those subjects that we have to agree to disagree.

Can I bust the myth that faith /church schools offer a "better" education?

There are excellent church schools and some disastrous ones too same as there are fantastic community schools and some poor ones too.

My objection is about having an education system that creates a hierarchy exactly as many posters think: church schools offer something "extra" and are therefore more desirable. This then suggests that community schools are somehow "less" desirable. If this were true it would not be so bad , but it is not!

I have taught in church and community schools: good, excellent and not so good. The quality of the education was not dependent on church/non-church but on the teachers who were mostly not particularly religious!

But the fact remains that a lot of faith schools do produce better educational results, which is why parents want their children to go to them. Why else is all this 'lying and cheating' (according to granjura) going on?