Are you an ex Christian?

And I pray he will always give me the strength to defend .

Well anyone reading this discussion , next time there is a thread on the windsors and I upset the royalists by saying queenie is a hypocrite fir holding onto so much wealth whilst there are people sleeping on pavements you will find some here who attack churches for not selling up will defend queenie who is head of the church of England !

Annie You are a powerful defender - but you defend where there is no attack.

You could have saved much unpleasant posts if you had said that at the start vampirequeen, it has taken a couple of days but you finally managed it , this if often the problem when remarks are made without thought they could hurt , I am glad you explained your first post on garbage , such anazty word isn't it

Do people do good things only because they are Christians? Do Muslims do good things only because they are Muslims? If that were the case, no non-Christian or non-Muslim would ever help those who need it or give to those who had nothing, and yet in every country and every society, the poor are looked after, the sick are nursed, the unhappy are comforted. There is no monopoly - and isn't it supposed to be done without the expectation of praise?

Some (by no means all) Christians do think that they are the only ones who do good. I remember hearing (or perhaps I read it on here) of someone who met a family who had moved here from abroad and knew no-one and nothing about how to go about settling in. They helped them negotiate various bits of red tape and find their way. They were very grateful, and at the weekend asked which church their helpers went to, as they would like to join it. When the answer was that they didn't go to church, they were not religious, they were incredulous - "But you helped us . . . you must be Christians"

now you post something completely different to the post which I found not only upsetting but a lie

OK so here comes RE101.

Jesus was asked which was the greatest commandment. Meaning which of the 10 commandments was the most important. Jesus then gave them two more commandments that encompassed all 10 commandments and his previous and future teachings. Let's look at the two new commandments and see how they fit in with teachings in the OT and NT.

Love God
Commandments 1, 2 and 3. 4 fits into both categories.

Love your neighbour as your self
Commandments 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10
Don’t judge others (the parable of the speck and the log)
Share what you have (the parable of the rich man’s meditation and the teaching of the camel/eye of needle)
Don’t think you’re better than anyone else (the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector)
Care for the less fortunate (the parable of the Good Samaritan)
The Beatitudes

I could continue but I hope this this time you get my point. Jesus said it would be a better world if we were all nice to each other and he was right. Jesus is part of the Trinity so whatever he says the other two parts (God the Father and God the Holy Spirit) are in agreement. Therefore by following the rule you are living the way God wants you to live. By living the way God wants you to live you are honouring him.

Therefore I did not disrespect any of the teachings of Jesus simply the teachings and traditions imposed on the Church by man. If any of you can’t see that this time then I suggest you remove the log from your eye.

Iam, yes sadly many atheists who are hostile towards churches and attack at any given chance.

I will not give up defending the good done by so many people throughout the world , good done because they believe in garbage!

How many homeless hostels are run by the Salvation Army, how many lives have been saved by the work of a man of garbage ,Chad Varah, a very close friend of mine who has given a home to very troubled teenagers for over forty years , he does so because he is a priest and believes in the garbage

Nuns who teach in third world countries because they believe in garbage . How many Christians in the Middle East will be locked up or killed because they believe in garbage

All this and so much more because they believe in the teachings of a man who preached ? Garbage

Why are there so many different sects or branches of Christian doctrine if people have not always argued about what counts as a truly Christian belief and what is a ridiculous idea?

Does this arguing, that clearly has taken and does take place between Christians, mean that those arguing against Doctrine A are consigning those people who argue in favour of Doctrine B to the dustbin as people? Of course it doesn't.

Mind you, there were the Internicene Wars... maybe zealous religious people have more hate for people who think differently than non-religious people do. In my experience atheists are a pretty tolerant bunch when it comes to attitudes to other people. Their attitudes to certain ideas can be less tolerant, but why should anyone tolerate religious oppressiveness such as is witnessed still in parts of the world?

Ruby, glad you feel a bit better today. Hold onto the good days they can ease the not good days , I get some days when I feel like giving up , they pass . This has been such a strange year, such turmoil , I keep muttering - this to will pass

There is never any hostility on Gransnet to the good things that Christians do. Saying that there is is a sign of more confusing of separate things. There is questioning and even ridiculing of certain religious beliefs (Christian and otherwise) that some people think ridiculous. Saying a belief is ridiculous or irrational or whatever is not saying a person is ridiculous.

The depth of confusion is astonishing!

Even Christians question and ridicule and argue about beliefs and church doctrine. They always have! Has nobody heard of doubt?

Confusing the discussion of ideas with "attacks" on people who do good things is, as I said, astonishing. Especially as some of seems to be deliberate, a kind of celebration of fabricated victimhood. I think some of it is verging on dishonest, possibly unintentoinally, but still an amazing avoidance of actuality.

Non-Christians do just as much in the way of good works as Christians do. Just by the way.

I share annie's feelings about the attacks on the Church when the good it does goes unnoticed. Our local Churches work with vulnerable people, support work with the homeless and with refugees as well as providing welcoming services for those who choose to go to Church.
No one has to go, or to become involved but I'm surprised at the level of hostility towards Christianity so often shown on gransnet.

Anniebach Thank you, I do hope so, I hate feeling like I have done. A bit better today.

Some churches Eleothan, would you strip Westminster Abbey?

What I find unfair is the attacks by atheists on what the church does wrong, never a mention of the good done. At least I am honest and can admit to the failings but I will not hesitate to speak of the good done.

You say the Christian Church, I have not seen a wealthy Baptist Church, a wealthy Friends Meeting House, a wealthy Citadel, and I do attend services in these Christian churches as well as an Anglican Church

anniebach Do you remember the Dennis Potter play Son of Man? In that play Jesus was presented as a tortured person who was continually questioning his own sanity and beliefs, as well as fighting for the powerless and confronting the powerful.

We don't have to go too far back to see that the Christian church - along with other religions - was and is a long way away from those original values of love and non-violence. I'm inclined to think that Jesus would look at the riches amassed by the churches, their upholding of traditional hierarchical structures and practices (such as the monarchy and the war industry) and proclaim them to be "garbage".

No vampire I am not calling you a liar , to lie you would have to know what you said was not true , it was an untruth but if you believe it to be true then you cannot be accused of being a liar

Atqui to answer your question as best I can I am not an ex-Christian, but I am an ex-churchgoer and to some people they seem to be the same thing:
I became a Christian after reading a bible gifted to me by a Roman Catholic acquaintance. Prior to that my experience of church and the Christian religion was very limited. I grew up under the influence, in my teenage years, of my communist father who I would now describe as a militant atheist. In the early years of my newfound faith I was very much a traditionalist although I was never tied to a single denomination - I simply attended my nearest Christian church. I gained various leadership positions and taught Sunday School for close to thirty years. During that time I continued to learn more about the faith I professed and my husband and I together challenged and questioned the orthodoxy of traditional Christian teaching. Eleven years ago we left the church where we held leadership positions to pursue a simpler, more holistic expression of our faith. Now our faith is primarily worked out in community action, but we meet together often with like-minded Christian believers, in a home rather than a church building, much like the early 'church' did before it became an institution. Some may think we have lost our faith because we don't 'attend' church any more, but I think it would be true to say that we are now more 'church' than we have ever been. People find it hard to understand what we're doing so we end up describing ourselves as simple church/house church/a fresh expression of Christianity etc. but really we're just a bunch of pals who get together to enjoy each other's company; we talk about life, we pray together, we ask questions and we don't always agree on the answers, we encourage each other - and we eat together. Happily the more traditional Christian minister/vicars do 'get' us and we feel very much a part of the wider church here in our town.

He overturned the tables of the moneychangers who were exchanging currencies (at a good profit, I daresay) so that people could spend on sacrifices. He said that and the they and the sellers of doves and animals for sacrifice had made the temple a den of thieves or a place of trade.

That seems very much as though he thought those were garbage things to do. Other words, but the same opinion.

Anniebach, I refer you to my last post.

If you don't explain your meaning then I'll have to assume I was correct and you are indeed calling me a liar.

Probably not, as the word wouldn't have been around then, but he might well have shouted (not muttered, because he was angry) 'What blasphemy!'

Anniebach I'd appreciate an answer to my post. Are you calling me a liar?

Eleothan, this about the teachings of Christ which was dismissed as garbage , not what Christ would consider garbage, and I doubt he would have muttered 'what garbage' when he turned on the moneylenders

Just in case I've misread your post as you seem to misread mine, are you calling me a liar? I'd hate to respond to such an accusation if I have made a mistake in your intentions.

thatbags, because you cannot see a reason it does not mean no reason exists

Surely, in his time, Jesus thought that much of the religious, political, financial and cultural system was "garbage"? Isn't that why he threw the money lenders out of the temple, why he said "he who is without sin throw the first stone", spoke of a rich man being unable to enter the kingdom of heaven, etc? It could be argued that, historically, mainstream religions have underpinned the funmdamental traditional structures that reinforced inequality of gender, race and class rather than challenged it, and still do.

Luckygirl, you ask a question to which there is no answer - unless one is a fundamentalist and I am not.

Personally I have always struggled with Paul, and Revelations I will leave to the JW's . The Old Testement I accept as the history of the Jews and cannot accept today all that was written , I respect it though

I base my faith on the teachings of Christ and so I do believe them to be true ,

I'm doing a crossword and I just thought: you don't have to agree with something to understand it. Yes, lack of understanding when there seems to be no reason for it is definitely troubling.

Bakc to the crossword.