The Josiah Effect: how moderate religion fuels fundamentalism

'The mistake westerners are making is to delude themselves that these people appreciate the so-called tolerance of them - if the boot was on the other foot - they would not defend our rights.'

Thank you Sarah for making this point. IMO it's not expressed often or clearly enough, though perhaps it should also be stressed that there would be exceptions - many, I hope.

I think a lot of religious fundamentalism stems from how individuals want to be seen be their peers. For example a father cannot be seen to tolerate his daughter having a boyfriend/close friendship with a boy and so he does what (he thinks) others expect of him and kills the daughter. This way he has proven his devotion to the religion. He does not allow fact that he knows it's wrong or that he loves his daughter to stop him doing what is "expected of him". Of course he is hallowed by his peers, they would have done exactly the same thing. Wouldn't they?

It seems to me that religion is of interest as a topic for sociological study. I believe that it has been used as a method of control for thousands of years. The basic principle being, the more wretched is life on earth, the more passionate the belief in a 'better life' hereafter.

Was it Lenin who said, 'Religion is the opium of the masses'?

Quite right, imo.

Catholic bishop acknowledges that many religions promote hatred for homosexuals, including the Catholic faith.

patheos.com/blogs/progress…

In response to the OP it has been my experience that children in UK schools are explicitly taught to question all faiths as part of their RE syllabus. On Tuesday next week (if I can speak after my op) I will be joining several other faith representatives for an annual 'grilling' at my local secondary school, where the children are permitted to ask anything at all about my faith. They are taught to critically examine the tenets of all the major faiths and to understand the wider context of the religious/faith experience.

link to the thread in question if you are still around to read it.

sarahc446655 the majority of muslims in this country are as much against the violence as the rest of us. Your post is bigoted. And, I think offensive.

And if you took the trouble to read Gransnet p;roperly you would see that there has been a thread about the tragic happenings in Orlando. It is insulting to accuse us of not having heard about that.

Since the birth of religion there has always been fundamentalism.
Through out history all religions have had fanatics carrying out atrocities against their fellow man.
I fear that in 100 yrs or so it will still be happening.

ps I meant your original link, haven't read the others yet.

That essay is interesting, thatbags. I didn't know much about King Josiah, who was so ruthless in wiping out the idol worshippers of his day, death and destruction all around, so read some from 2 Kings 23.
Then googled further about him and found this example: www.biblefunforkids.com/2014/04/king-josiah.html
Which is rather ironic.
Sarah's post puts the crux of the problem, imo. The difference is that in the current situation one group is imposing it's opinions on others of completely different views and origins by force. There are examples in the past of that also eg the Crusades.

Here's another good piece addressing "vicious ideology" as well as gun control. Author goes by thr name of Futile Democracy on the blog.

Although the post you referred to, ww, was expressed in a way that could be seen as a scapegoating tactic, I actually think the poster wanted, like me, to challenge some harmful fundamentalist and everyday islamic ideas as unfit for the modern world.

Certainly all Muslims (or 'Islamics') should not be blamed for terrorist acts done by Muslims in the name of their religion according to their fundamentalist beliefs. But I do think there are too many repressive Islamic regimes in the world; I do think that there are beliefs, about suitable punishments for various things they don't like such as blasphemy, being gay, being a victim of rape, etc., held by a lot of Muslims that we ought to challenge. So I don't think it's wrong to challenge Islam and Islamism. That is not scapegoating, it's challenging ideologies.

If we were still in a period of Christian crusading and killing of infidels, I'd be saying the same about Christian ideology, or whichever group ideology, or ideology based on any inhumane ideas that was causing problems for others. In the case of the killings at the Boston marathon, at the Paris offices of Charlie Hebdo, of the murder of a British soldier on the street in the UK, of 9/11, and it seems of the recent Orlando shootings, the ideology that drives the killers can be found in the Koran, the 'holy' book of Islam.
I don't see how pretending this isn't so will help change anything. We need to stop saying such attacks have "nothing to do with Islam; that simply isn't true. They may have nothing to do with most people's Islam but they are inspired by writings in the Koran, just as Christian crusaders were inspired by writings in the bible.

The US also needs to seriously address its gun laws. Again, we can't scapegoat gun owners as a group because most of them never commit a crime. But we can say that making it harder for some types of gun to be bought easily might make a difference. There already has been a change in the law about machine guns. Now they need one about assault rifles, at the very least.

I forget how many people have been killed this years by toddlers alone, so it seems a number of Americans are careless with their guns too. That's a separate issue.

Read Sarah's post then you'll understand my response

It was in response to "trying to scapegoat one group". Since I hadn't read any scapegoating in the article, I wondered why scapegoating came up and why it was mentioned. That's all.

?

At least the Buddha said "Question everything".

Gun control[not sure what that exactly means really] wont get anywhere, anytime soon. They love their guns in the USA.

bags did you mean my comment about scapegoating? Only if you did it wasn't about the article, but about something another poster said.

He doesnt take the Bible as a whole.
Same with anything really. If people choose to lob off bits of anything or, home in on something and ignore other parts, any manner of things could happen.It reminds me of diy flatpack instructions. If done correctly, it works out well. If not, any manner of things can ensue.
Common sense really.

I think extremist ideologies and gun control need to be addressed, not just one or the other.

It is mostly religious groups that have opposed the implementation of equal marriage right to gay people. This, logically, must have something to do with what their religion teaches them and what they accept as god's word.

I don't think there's any scapegoating in the article. The author is writing about religious radicalisation that might affect any person who, as he says, "accepts without question the authority of the very same books that serve as the basis for fundamentalist ideologies". He is saying, and I agree with him, that there is stuff in the bible and in the koran that can be interpreted in extremist ways and then acted upon. Recent terrorist attacks by people who themselves claim to be acting on behalf of Islam are examples of this happening. This in no way scapegoats all christians or all muslims. It is an attempt at trying to understand why this sort of attack happens and where on earth the perpetrators get the idea from that it is allright to kill gays pr to throw them off high buildings. The ideas are in the Koran and in the Bible, as the author explains.

Most people only use the good bits of those books.

There are other attacks, particularly in the US, where the cause of the killer's actions is different and, of course, ease of access to assault rifles and other such weapons does not help.

The KKK are not Muslim , how much blood on the hands of this evil sect

sarah yes I heard about the LGBT club being attacked in the States - appalling. I also seem to remember the same thing happening in the states month after month - often children or young people - appalling.

The gun laws need to be repealed. People with recognised mental instability need to be refused access to guns.

With regard to the Islamic faith - yes this is also a belief system and part of European Culture, although many of our citizens of Islamic faith come from the Commonwealth.

I can remember sitting in cars with my boyfriend canoodling because I know my parents would disapprove.

Trying to scapegoat one group is not an attractive thing to do, there is enough of that going on at the moment with Brexit.