The Pope

Yes Gabriella , very much like that x

Anniebach, much of my family is Baptist but I do not go to church. You don't have to believe there is a God to be a good person. I try to help anyone I can and do my best not hurt anyone's feelings. I find being honest easy (I worked in a bank for most of my working life!). I hope we are just having a discussion and not upsetting anyone.

I was a very devout Catholic in my childhood. I also had a keen interest in history particularly renaissance Italy. The appalling abuses of power, the complete machinations of those jockeying to be top dog, the utter disregard for human suffering and the exploitation of those poor souls they should have been protecting was appalling and it's as true in recent history as it was then. They should have put their house in order long long ago - it makes so angry that the church I loved is complicit in vile practices aiding and abetting abusers who destroy peoples' lives and who were/are protected by the church instead of being brought to justice. The Catholic Church and all other organisations who harbour abusers only have themselves to blame when people turn away.

The Christian faith or any other faith doesn't own good behaviour. Its entirely possible to be a good, kind person doing their best for others without adhering to any formalised religion at all.

I believe in people doing whatever it takes to make them happy and content, Annie, and not harming anyone else.
Whether that means having faith in God, or dancing widdershins round a Kirk, I'm happy for them.

Anniebach
Rather like the part in 'Little Women' (Mary Louise Alcott) where the 4 sisters give up their buckwheat pancakes and other breakfast foods on Christmas morning to give to a poor German mother and children. They lit a fire, stuffed broken window panes with rags and fed and clothed the baby. 'You are angels' she said, in German.

Phew! One thing I don’t think Gransnet should do on these forums, is delete. There is such a thing as free speech and this should be allowed - who has a right to censor on this forum - in my opinion free speech must always be allowed.

Your most welcome Gabriella, I so understand because I was part of a devout Christian family where love for and of God was the core . Not Roman Catholic but Baptist, my father told me of a meal time where they all trouped into the kitchen for dinner , porridge ! my grandma had taken the evening meal to a family where the father had been killed in a mining accident, the children were hungry , this is what Christ asks of us.

Just ONE act of cruelty and abuse is not acceptable.Not interested in Pope, Catholicism or any other religion, but abuse of any kind is to be condemned.

Not to mention the eldest son being given to the priesthood (that was Ireland I don’t know about here) no choice just given
All religions are businesses which I personally prefer to keep away from
I try to live a decent life made many mistakes along the way but have always seen the error of what I ve done and made sure I tried blooming hard not to do it again I didn’t need a priest to tell me or forgive me saying some prayers won’t alter the fact I ve made a mistake neither will saying sorry through a third person, the only way is to realise you were wrong is make sure it never happens again
The worst thing about all this is these people were looked up to, they had no excuses, they were knowledgable, they were pious, they were teaching goodness and doing badness

There are so many strands Child abuse, Child cruelt, Mother and child separation, babies killed and put in unmarked trenches, children sent overseas away from their families, lied to, naterialism, stealing off the poor It goes on and on in fact just about everything expected of the congregation has been done by their leaders and betters and this goes for all religions I don’t think there’s a stick to put between them
I don’t know if there’s a God I like to think there is, and then an afterlife heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo paradise I feel these are all told us to keep us in line I d love to think there is and it’s something better than what’s going on down here but I don’t count on it I m just trying to do what I can in the best way possible for me my family and anyone else that crosses my path mentally or physically

Then you believe in Christianity surely MissAdventure ?

I am trying to understand, for me to say I don’t believe in Christ is rather like I don’t believe in Father Christmas but expect gifts .

As a Christian I am angry that fellow Christians can go against Christ’s teachings as with child abusers, but don’t understand how anyone who doesn’t believe in Christ can expect his teachings to be lived by .

If this makes sense, which I doubt it does.

With regard to the children sent to Australia, I remember watching an interview some years ago. It was with a man who was told his parents were dead and he was sent to Australia to work on a farm (nothing to do with any church), he was abused and beaten. By the time he found out he had been lied to his parents were dead. He started to cry, the (Australian) interviewer, put his hand on his shoulder and motioned for the cameraman to stop filming. The image of that interviewers compassion has always stayed with me.

Anniebach
Thanks for your comment Annie. Mum's mother was Spanish and went back to Catalonia after she and 'pops' split. He was a wine merchant and thought it unsuitable to have her at home when his wife left.
Mum made it her mission to give us the home life she craved but never had. I can never thank her enough.
This was in Liverpool, St Margarets Convent.

Well, for me, Annie I would expect a Christian to at least try not to commit possibly the worst sin by abusing a child.
I mean, I know nobody is perfect, but its hardly in the same league as accidentally swearing if you hit your thumb with a hammer..

Bijou, how can you share the principles of a man you don’t believe in

In 1950 I visited Rome. It was still in ruins and there were beggars and wounded soldiers every where. We went into the Vatican treasure house where there was untold wealth and jewels. Outside we gave a poor old woman in black some lira. She spent it on candles even though she looked hungry.
Some years later in. Spanish hill top village the inhabitants had no water supply and were ,toiling up hill to the only standpipe. Yet the church was being renovated and gilded .
That is the Roman Catholic religion.
I am an atheist but do have Christian principles.

Thank you MissAdventure, I asked you because I thought I would get a calm reply ?

I am curious why people who have no faith therefore do not believe in God and the teachings of Christ expect those within a church to behave differently from any Jo Bloggs , if all the Christian church stands for is nothing but lies why expect anything but lies

Rosina and Saggi I agree with both of you, religious institutions of all types are patriarchal, domineering intent on keeping the population and in particular women, under control. The Catholic Church in particular have a bad record of this right back in history ( from the inquisition to present day) when allegedly celebate men try to control women’s fertility and sexuality through fear and intimidation. ( not so different from radical Islam) the sooner the world becomes secular and eschews all religions as ‘ fake news’ the better off the human race will be!

Actually, the present pope is taking a very hard line on many things, including cases of abuse by priests or nuns, so I find it entirely likely that he will listen to anyone who has a complaint of that nature during his visit to Ireland.

When I lived in Scotland it was common for clergymen of all denominations to visit their parishioners, or send members of the congregation to do so to collect "dues".

As á Catholic I get very tired of this constant criticism of the Catholic church, whilst no Protestant seems very willing to mention abuse of any kind perputated by Protestant ministers or priests.

Unfortunately, sexual abuse has and does occur in any community.

And why criticise the Pope for spending money on visits? Part of his job is seeing what is actually going on in the universal church which he cannot do sitting in the Vatican.

It is an age old argument that the church could spend its money differently, and sometimes more wisely, but just giving money to those in need, or the victims of abuse does not solve the underlying problems, which Pope Francis is IMO genuinely attempting to address.

Surely then, if someone without faith abuses, that too is about power, and nothing to do with lack of faith?

I'm an agnostic, I would say, Annie.

Child abuse was and is endemic everywhere where children are left to the care of strangers or people who cannot care for themselves. Anyone ever read Billy Connolly on the subject of the abuse he suffered as a child?
What about the childrens homes in Wales where a number of people were eventually prosecuted over a long period of years?

What about the great public schools which allowed older boys to beat younger boys for several hundred years?

What about the asylums and mental health hospitals? the homes for the learning disabled? Hardly ever in the care of the religious orders by the way,

Bottom line here. The religious orders cared for the unwanted children of children who may themselves have been unwanted. Some of those Nuns and Brothers were abused themselves and went on to abuse others. Of that there is no doubt. But this is and was about power not faith.

Again I say, do you really think the current systems for looked after children and the children of the very poor are better because the laeity are in charge now?

MissAdventure may I ask if you have a faith or are you an atheist?

Gabriella, so sad to read about your mother, if her own mother had protected her how different her life could have been.

Of course children can be better off being raised by decent people who aren't abusers.
Fact, not prejudice.
There are good and bad in all areas, but within the church... well.. just beyond contempt.