Does God exist? I'd like to be clear in my mind

gmarie Thu 10-Oct-19 20:07:26

"It's always SO frustrating to be told that! SirChenjin said it well: it's not a case of not wanting to believe, you make it sound like it's a choice. Someone said people of faith don't criticise those who are not but this is a smug sort of way to do that very thing!"

Next time, give him these quotes and if that does not make him run away or retract his statement, then you will know that he is not bright enough to understand his own ideology and bible.

They show that none of us have a choice on how we believe.
That, of course, is a lie, but the bible says it is true.

Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?
In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.
John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

I will open an O.P. titled, --- Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Please opine in it if you think it worth your time.

Regards
DL

SirChenjin

"For me, to have the God that I love and believe in, my spiritual Father scorned and insulted is offensive and I will defend Him and the love I have for Him as I would my husband, my child, a relative and a friend."

Then defend your god based on what your bible says. I have many issues that I doubt you can defend but let me speak to only one murder at his hands. I have worked that into my Gnostic Christian moral thinking.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Regards
DL

SirChenjin Thu 10-Oct-19 21:55:26

"Those who quote scriptures in an attempt to demonstrate that other posters haven’t read the bible or don’t know the verses as well as they do would do well to stop being so childish and goady smile"

Is that what you would tell your God, because I am following your bibles good advice?

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Gnostic Christians are called the only good Christians for a reason.

Regards
DL

Gods do not exist DL. As my wise grandmother used to say, “a goat’s frown cannot stop it from being taken”.

Regardest regards,

Chen

SirChenjin Thu 10-Oct-19 23:00:35

"Gods do not exist DL."

No argument as far as supernatural gods are concerned.

That does not take away our responsibility to try to dissuade those who believe them real and are following immoral ideologies and hurting many of our weakest and most vulnerable and gullible.

If you are not against them, you are for them and the harm they cause.

For evil to grow and all that buddy.

Regards
DL

I repeat, gods do not exist.

Regardest regards to your increasing silliness

Chen

Gnostic, you'd be better to keep it all as simple as possible. Each person is at the level of understanding and experience they are at.

It's clear from most of the replies that pastors have failed to get their flocks to think for themselves.

Some people question what they don't believe or do- Some don't- Isn't either an exercise of freewill?

it's not a question of free will. Whether or not I think for myself is a question of who reared, socialised, and educated me.

Some individuals are taught to comply with conventional ideas and others are taught to think independently of what others think. There are times and places where one or the other way is appropriate. You can sometimes recognise the more conventional people as they may write platitudes and accept whatever religious doctrine they have been taught.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Megan Phelps Roper is the grand daughter of Fred Phelps who was the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church - Her book, a memoir, titled Unfollow was recently released -

Here's the Amazon summary:

"At the age of five, Megan Phelps-Roper began protesting homosexuality and other alleged vices alongside fellow members of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas. Founded by her grandfather and consisting almost entirely of her extended family, the tiny group would gain worldwide notoriety for its pickets at military funerals and celebrations of death and tragedy. As Phelps-Roper grew up, she saw that church members were close companions and accomplished debaters, applying the logic of predestination and the language of the King James Bible to everyday life with aplomb―which, as the church’s Twitter spokeswoman, she learned to do with great skill. Soon, however, dialogue on Twitter caused her to begin doubting the church’s leaders and message: If humans were sinful and fallible, how could the church itself be so confident about its beliefs? As she digitally jousted with critics, she started to wonder if sometimes they had a point―and then she began exchanging messages with a man who would help change her life.

A gripping memoir of escaping extremism and falling in love, Unfollow relates Phelps-Roper’s moral awakening, her departure from the church, and how she exchanged the absolutes she grew up with for new forms of warmth and community. Rich with suspense and thoughtful reflection, Phelps-Roper’s life story exposes the dangers of black-and-white thinking and the need for true humility in a time of angry polarization"

I regret your message was deleted, Gnostic. Could you possibly rephrase it minus whatever it was offended the moderator?

Rosecarmel, I guess "the dangers of black-and-white thinking and the need for true humility in a time of angry polarization"

is also your personal opinion. I agree. When an ideology is unexamined and not filtered through individuals' reason that ideology is idolatry.

As a Christian, I’m happy to accept that not everyone is. In fact the Bible is quite clear that only a third of mankind will be saved. All I would say to non Christians, after I’ve tried to talk to them about Jesus, and they’ve scoffed, is it’s fine to disbelieve a book which was written by hundreds of people over thousands of years, as long as they’re consistent, and disbelieve any history book. In fact, anything before the oldest person on the planet can confirm! Of course, this applies to all evolutionary writings as well. In fact , history books show that Darwin supposedly refuted all this on his death bed, but of course, not everyone is going to believe history books!! The question we’re always being asked is why does God allow suffering? Well, if you read the Bible, you would see that nowhere does he promise perfection in this life, only the next. All you have to do is choose it. You have free will, which He wants, not hundreds of little “ robots “ following Him and not knowing why. The choice is yours. As a Christian, I don’t gain anything from you becoming one. It’s up to you. God bless.

Amen to that Kathy1959

God in the form of a helpless baby.

Can't you see how god is our responsibility to discover and care for god? The book of Rules,which is how some people regard The Bible , is not enough. It's our duty to interpret these rules. The life and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth helps us to interpret these rules.

I was raised in strict catholism and had no religious education other than nun-delivered catechism, allowing my parents to gain a religious exclusion from school RE. Also raised to be curious, I struggled from an early age with the illogicality of Miracles all of which caused me to reject the lot of it in my teens. It did however cause a great curiosity and I’ve maintained a life long interest in the practices of other religions.
I truly believe in good and bad, dark and light, positive and negative and that striving to be a good and thoughtful person, doing no harm to others whilst caring deeply for those around you is the only true way. As for a God, I believe he/she is simply a personification of the good, a guiding force, culturally variable due to geographical isolation. This idea of a God has been corrupted over time the world over into something that can be manipulated by bad people to further their own agenda (history supports that theory time and again).
As regards judgement, I think we form our own in times of crisis through self-questioning, and ultimately perhaps at the moment of death.

I feel incredible sad that I don’t have deep beliefs I would so much like to be someone who has such complete comfort that faith brings Of course it doesn’t mean bad things won’t happen but with firm belief it makes them more bearable I think I struggle so much with this can’t believe we are just here for this mean and miserable resistance but also can’t see anything beyond it

For those who believe no proof is necessary for those who don't believe no proof is possible

People are fallible (unable to cope with what life throws at us, weak, silly, at times plain evil). Societies have devised various ways of dealing with these things - legal and social pressures and structures. BUT belief in something 'other' supporting, guiding us can help us be better people. It is not a matter of some external reality but of something which helps us function. When we say we BELIEVE - that is what we mean - we do not aim to KNOW or UNDERSTAND. It just works. Religions and gods are only to be followed to the extent they support the sort of society we want to develop - it is a bit 'buyer beware'. Not everyone seems to need it - my OH is fine with me being quite active at church - he just does not feel he needs it.

Gosh what a lot of confidence that there are/not cannot be gods - how do we know that? Just because at the moment we don't know, we cannot assume. There is so much we know and understand now that even 50 years ago would have been roundly dismissed - now I'm talking of the world of science and tech. Try imaging explaining You Tube to your great gran....

I am neither a committed Christian nor have I a degree in religious studies, but I do perceive that there is a lot of guff spoken and written by those who confuse the "evil" that they believe religion brings and the capacity for selfishness, greed, cruelty, and sheer wickedness that is part of the complex personality of human beings. It is people who cause the evil that abounds in the world, not this, that or the other faith.

There are facets of what is taught by some people in the name of a faith which can cause humans to do evil things -for instance, to punish those who they think are breaking some divine law or other, despite the clear statement " 'Vengeance is mine' says the Lord" - that is, "The Lord will take care of it, don't YOU start taking vengeance on his behalf!"

Then there is the tendency of some to assign the tenets of one faith system to the real beliefs of another. Gnostic confuses Christianity with the books of the Old Testament. Christianity was "a new covenant" made between God and man, through his son, Christ. It owed a lot to the old covenant with the Jews, but it was not identical. Much was rejected.

Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice. - confusing Christians of the New Covenant with previous pre-Christian history from the outdated bloodthirsty tradition of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" again, Gnostic

Lots of evil hatred from Gnostic showing up on this thread, trying enthusiastically to sow the seeds of dissent around, but mostly revealing clearly his/her own prejudice and misanthropy.

I do not think it even matters whether there is a god or gods. Just live your life, having kindness and honesty as your goals.

I think kindness and compassion counts for a lot Luckygirl and “do unto others....” is a great ideal to live by.

If some have a faith which helps them cope better with life I won’t criticise.

I believe this life is the one life that we have with no afterlife or supernatural gods. This belief helps me to live life to the full, and in the way best way I can.