Does God exist? I'd like to be clear in my mind

Gnostic You obviouslydo not understand my sentence.Scientific evidence that they did not exist is clearly not the same as no scientific evidence that they exist.

I am getting quite confused about what you are saying and so will have to agree to disagree. My faith is in a person not in a series of intellectual arguments.

Regardless of whether or not you do so, or how many times you put "Regards DL" at the end of your posts, I find them offensive; "your vile genocidal god's doing".

You believe in the Gnostic gospels found in the Nag Hammadi Library and I believe in the gospels of the new testament.

If you wish to prove make a point by referring to texts you should quote them and not simply state your own interpretation of them.

2 Corinthians 3 v 14 was a reference to the Jews who did not believe in Jesus as the messiah and crucified Him. "But their minds were closed for to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed". So, God did not harden hearts, all were given the same opportunity to accept the love of God in Christ.

In other translations, none refer to God hardening hearts for example NIV "but their minds were made dull" English Standard Version "but their minds were hardened"; minds, not hearts.

"My faith is in a person not a series of intellectual arguments" great post Greenfinch.

HettyMaud, in your OP you say you don’t know what you are, well I think that is a good think that you haven’t pigeonholed yourself.
From your posts I have the impression of an enquiring , intelligent human being who is predominantly a good person who believes in & tries to live her life thoughtfully & caring.
Keep up the good work & forget the labels. Best wishes

Ohhps Thing not think !

Paul's and the apostles teaching was handed down to the 2nd generation church fathers, people like Irenaus, Polycarp and Clement. Later to Augustine, Jerome et al.

What you are saying is that none of the gospels, none of the writings of the apostles and none of this tradition handed down through the generations, has any truth or credibility.

You believe that the Gnostic gospels/'secret knowledge' discovered in the NH library, are more valid and more believable than the whole of the Christian tradition.

It's like comparing apples with pears.

Greenfinch Thu 10-Oct-19 14:18:58

Gnostic You obviouslydo not understand my sentence.Scientific evidence that they did not exist is clearly not the same as no scientific evidence that they exist.

I am getting quite confused about what you are saying and so will have to agree to disagree. My faith is in a person not in a series of intellectual arguments.
---
Faith without facts is for fools.

A book of myths is not a book of facts.

Regards
DL

Smileless2012 Thu 10-Oct-19 14:22:11

Regardless of whether or not you do so, or how many times you put "Regards DL" at the end of your posts, I find them offensive; "your vile genocidal god's doing".

You believe in the Gnostic gospels found in the Nag Hammadi Library and I believe in the gospels of the new testament.

If you wish to prove make a point by referring to texts you should quote them and not simply state your own interpretation of them.

2 Corinthians 3 v 14 was a reference to the Jews who did not believe in Jesus as the messiah and crucified Him. "But their minds were closed for to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed". So, God did not harden hearts, all were given the same opportunity to accept the love of God in Christ.

In other translations, none refer to God hardening hearts for example NIV "but their minds were made dull" English Standard Version "but their minds were hardened"; minds, not hearts
---
You should be offended by the truth about the prick of a satanic god you follow.

Unfortunately, you lack the moral sense to condemn him for his genocides.

You might wonder why you like a Hitler type of god.

You have embraced Jesus while rejecting Yahweh and thus break the first commandment.

Go hide behind the ridiculous Trinity concept to explain your lack of a moral sense all you like.

Regards
DL

Smileless2012 Thu 10-Oct-19 14:34:05

Paul's and the apostles teaching was handed down to the 2nd generation church fathers, people like Irenaus, Polycarp and Clement. Later to Augustine, Jerome et al.

What you are saying is that none of the gospels, none of the writings of the apostles and none of this tradition handed down through the generations, has any truth or credibility.

You believe that the Gnostic gospels/'secret knowledge' discovered in the NH library, are more valid and more believable than the whole of the Christian tradition.

I do not so stop trying to put words into my mouth.

You ignore that the Jesus you know also had secret knowledge that he taught the apostles, while only giving parable to the non-initiated.

Your double standard is noted.

There is lots of truth in all wisdom writings if you know how to read them.

Literalists do not know how to read scriptures.

Gnostic Christians do.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Regards
DL

And there we are - competitive quoting from the bible in an attempt to prove/disprove other people’s beliefs. What a sad state of affairs.

Regards, Chen

I think this competitive scriptural ping-pong is ample demonstration that eschewing formalised religion is the best way to go. Just be kind to each other; that is all.

I agree Lucky. What does it actually achieve? It’s certainly not indicative of tolerance or mutual respect.

Providing different views are presented in a polite and respectful way, there is nothing intolerant or lacking in respect SirChenjin; not in my posts anyway.

I do see though that Gnostics posts are lacking in both so wont be responding to her anymore.

I think it’s probably for the best - competitive bible quoting is rather ridiculous.

Re/ Those who do not believe in a god do not do so because they do not want to - they do so because they have no reason to and
I will never convince someone who doesn’t want to believe

It's always SO frustrating to be told that! SirChenjin said it well: it's not a case of not wanting to believe, you make it sound like it's a choice. Someone said people of faith don't criticise those who are not but this is a smug sort of way to do that very thing!

People like me, HettyMaud and I'd guess some others on here, HAVE been searching and learning and hoping, and, yes, praying to understand God, religion, faith for years!!

I mentioned my struggle in this regard as a child and teen in an earlier post. When the neighbor kids told me my parents were going to go to hell for not "believing", I bought a tiny, plastic gumball machine bible that would show the Lord's Prayer when you held it up to the light. I memorized that thing and said the prayer EVERY night for a YEARS, worrying about my family. No magical belief dropped upon me.

Then, when I went to 5 or 6 different churches with friends and asked questions, I found out that Christians believed that atheists like my parents, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and all manner of other folk would be sent to burn in hell forever; that's a majority of the world's population! Charles Manson and Ted Bundy could accept Jesus and get a free pass. That defies belief! My stepson is gay and the way many interpret the Bible, he would be cast into hell, as well.

I read the Bible, some sections like the Gospels and Revelation several times, to a hospice patient because it gave him comfort. I was always struck by the smiting and striking down of people approved by the God of the Bible. Why would anyone choose to believe in a god like that?!

I do believe we are more than a physical body and I believe we are here to love and care one another. I have this R. Buckminster Fuller quote on my wall and believe its sentiment. My God would as well.

Love is omni-inclusive, progressively exquisite, understanding and compassionately attuned to other than self.

As I was typing that up, you all added some very thoughtful things (posted right above mine. Sorry for my obvious frustration and upset. My dad died recently and I've really been struggling with this stuff...

My sincere condolences for your loss gmarie.

That's a lovely quote .

SirChenjin I respect your opinion that "competitive bible quoting is rather ridiculous" but want to say that my reasons for doing so were because the 'quotes' I was responding too were being used without their full meaning and content being represented.

Also, I fail to understand why anyone who derides the Bible would choose to use biblical quotes to try and undermine the faith of another.

For me, to have the God that I love and believe in, my spiritual Father scorned and insulted is offensive and I will defend Him and the love I have for Him as I would my husband, my child, a relative and a friend.

So much offence meted out and taken in the name of religion - it’s so sad.

As you said smileless . My condolences too gmarie

gmarie I find the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew's gospel very comforting because the sheep did not know they were sheep and likewise the goats did not know they were goats.Those who were saved were those who cared for their fellow men.

I am a liberal Christian and find it very difficult to accept those who are judgemental and intolerant.That is why I find some aspects of organised religion difficult to accept.Simone Weil a modern mystic felt that God always needs people who are on the edge which is where I feel I am and maybe you are too.

As for the God of the OT I have no problems as I believe the OT is the history of salvation.I believe the German is heilsgeschichte. It illustrates how mankind gradually began to understand about the nature of God or how God gradually revealed Himself to them in ways they could understand just as a young child can only comprehend little by little.The development is from the concrete to the abstract.

When I used to read in Church I could never say "This is the word of the Lord" at the end of a reading.It was more about what the people of the time thought about God and how far His revelation had got.

Luckygirl Thu 10-Oct-19 16:46:22

I think this competitive scriptural ping-pong is ample demonstration that eschewing formalised religion is the best way to go. Just be kind to each other; that is all."

I agree, and here are the biblical quotes to back us up. ;-)

You will never hear the lying preachers quote these.
You will see why.

Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Those types of enlightenment is why I quote scriptures to Christians, knowing that they likely have never read their bible.

Regards
DL

SirChenjin Thu 10-Oct-19 16:52:24

"I agree Lucky. What does it actually achieve? It’s certainly not indicative of tolerance or mutual respect."

Can women and gays get mutual respect from a homophobic and misogynous religion when those groups are relegated to being second class citizens?

Regards
DL

Those who quote scriptures in an attempt to demonstrate that other posters haven’t read the bible or don’t know the verses as well as they do would do well to stop being so childish and goady

Chen 6:2

gmarie Thu 10-Oct-19 20:07:26

"Love is omni-inclusive, progressively exquisite, understanding and compassionately attuned to other than self."

A good quote. Christians will not like it as that is against their heaven and hell non-universalist god.

Just so you know, Gnostic Christians, like that quote of yours, favors a universalist god abd have tied equality to righteousness.

That is why, unlike Christians, we are not a homophobic and misogynous religion.

gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

That is why some say that Gnostic Christians are the only good Christians.

Regards
DL