Does God exist? I'd like to be clear in my mind

paddyann I was going to answer your question as best I could but Alexa has made a good answer.

I don’t know why the world is not perfect. I don’t know why there is disease and natural disasters. I do know that there is real evil enacted by people. They are the ones that misuse their free will. I also know that a lot of good is performed by people.

What I do know is that the existence of God cannot be scientifically proven one way or the other, although some prominent scientists, including Einstein, are and were Christians.

Maybe people think that those of us who believe in God are mistaken but, our beliefs are no less valid than those of atheists.

The original poster must be more confused than ever after reading all these posts.

Tweedle24

Maybe people think that those of us who believe in God are mistaken but, our beliefs are no less valid than those of atheists.

Yes they are.

You believe by faith alone without logic or reason while atheists use logic and reason to get to their conclusions.

That is why your own ideology is based on just a hope that your faith is not jus a fantasy.

Atheists, IOW, have proofs and evidence for their thinking while you have nothing.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the believers mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL

No, faith isn't "pure idol worship", but if you don't have faith you wont understand that.

The existence or not of God is a belief not a fact, so the question 'Does God exist' is unanswerable (is that a word?). I don't have faith in a God, but I do have faith in the basic decency of humans beings.

pinkquartz , it's a very uncertain way to start out, isn't it? On the one hand, I'm glad I started out with a blank slate, so to speak, as it caused me to question and look into things instead of simply adopting a religion I was born into. On the other hand, I did envy the comfort others enjoyed and still do to a certain extent. I'm happy that my "middle ground" has a lot to recommend it, however. It sounds like you are, too.

Malcolm Muggeridge years ago once said when challenged on his faith “ I don’t believe, I know” That sums up faith for me. I will never convince someone who doesn’t want to believe but I have had a personal relationship with Christ and I know he will be there when I die. That for me is hugely comforting

Twice it's not a case of not wanting to believe, you make it sound like it's a choice. As an atheist I don't believe in gods any more than I believe in fairies or lepruchans, but as a person of faith you obviously know that Christ and your god exists - you didn't choose to believe and I don't choose not to believe. For me and other atheists it's exactly as Malcolm Muggeridge says.

someone who doesn’t want to believe - there is no such person.

Those who do not believe in a god do not do so because they do not want to - they do so because they have no reason to.

If you go into an empty room and someone says to you "There is a table here." You will not dispute that fact because you are filled with a burning desire not to see tables; but simply because there is nothing there to see.

SirChenjin - you didn't choose to believe and I don't choose not to believe

I don't understand this: surely all belief or not is a choice. Are you saying that we don't have free will?

So if I truly believe I can fly, that makes it true?

That'll be handy when I want to nip to the supermarket.

It's not a belief such as believing in the death penalty or abortion, is it?

If you accept that faith is a choice, then of course we have free will - but that wasn't what my post said. Luckygirl has it spot on with her table analogy. I could choose to believe that there's a table there even if there obviously isn't one, but for people who do believe in Christ and their god (like Twice and Malcolm Muggeridge) it's not necessary to see something before they know something exists in order to have that faith, it's inherent - and who am I to question that? I can only speak for myself.

Gnostic I am puzzled by your belief about God. If you are are Christian as stated you surely must believe in the God Christ pointed to ie a loving Father figure.

I don't believe that atheism or religion can be proved. We have finite minds and cannot comprehend all there is to know and so we have to make up our own minds about what we believe and be tolerant of others. For what we can't answer we must remain agnostic or accept by faith.

smiless2012 Thank you.

Twiceasnice That is a wonderful quote from Malcolm Muggeridge and said far better than I could have done.

Like most people of faith,, I do not criticise those who are not and see no reason why they should belittle my beliefs.

I don’t think that Agnostic is going to change those who believe in a god, nor those of us who do are going to change her opinions,

For what we can't answer we must remain agnostic or accept by faith

Would you extend that to everything we can't answer? I know it's a simplistic analogy, but would you suggest that approach to mythical creatures in folklore such as elves and fairies?

Everyone to their own.

Yes I would unless there was scientific evidence that they did not exist.Your use of the word mythological is interesting. What is a myth ?

Equally, your willingness to accept those mythical creatures as a possiblility is interesting - but each to their own.

Gods are myths as far as I’m concerned (although I don’t really think you’d expect me to say anything else). That doesn’t mean that my beliefs are any more or less valid than people who do have a faith.

Greenfinch Thu 10-Oct-19 11:56:11

" Yes I would unless there was scientific evidence that they did not exist.Your use of the word mythological is interesting. What is a myth ?"

Do you also think Thor is real because there is no scientific proof or evidence that he exists?

Regards
DL

nightswimmer Thu 10-Oct-19 11:43:08

"Everyone to their own."

I do not see yours as a good ideology.

You allow harm to others to go unchallenged.

If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

Regards
DL

Greenfinch Thu 10-Oct-19 11:10:25

Gnostic I am puzzled by your belief about God. If you are are Christian as stated you surely must believe in the God Christ pointed to ie a loving Father figure.

I don't believe that atheism or religion can be proved. We have finite minds and cannot comprehend all there is to know and so we have to make up our own minds about what we believe and be tolerant of others. For what we can't answer we must remain agnostic or accept by faith.
----

We do not know, as you seem to know, who the Father was for Jesus.

There is more than one Jesus in scriptures. There is the Rome created one that Constantine forced down the churches throat, and there is the Gnostic Jesus I follow.

The Father of Roman Jesus is said to be above somewhere while the Gnostic Jesus says that we are gods in our own rite.

The Gnostic Jesus, the church never quotes.

I do.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This Jesus is more of an eastern mystic. Right?

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

SirChenjin Thu 10-Oct-19 11:10:04

"If you accept that faith is a choice,"

If you follow the Christian god, your own bible says that we have no free choice in whether we believe of not.

It is decided by god by his giving grace to believe or hardening of hearts so that we cannot believe.

Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?
In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.

John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

Regards
DL

Smileless2012 Wed 09-Oct-19 23:29:19

"No, faith isn't "pure idol worship", but if you don't have faith you wont understand that."

If an ideal/god is not what you have faith in, you would be right, but you do think your god is supreme and thus your highest idolised personage. Right?

If not, who do you put above whatever you have faith in?

If you do not understand that you idol worship that highest ideal. If you have faith, you should understand.

Regards
DL

I reckon the Archbishop of Canterbury could have written this thread title.

Who can ever be that sure?

Wishful thinking.

Your last post has just shown that mine that you refer too is correct; you don't understand.

You can disagree with me; goodness knows I disagree with you but it is not for you to tell me that I or anyone else is wrong for what we believe or do not believe.

Ephesians Chap. v 8 "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God".

Smileless2012 Thu 10-Oct-19 13:53:13

Your last post has just shown that mine that you refer too is correct; you don't understand."

You have yet to put away the things of children, supernatural thinking, so I will keep understanding my way instead of your failed way.

If you are correct, and I am wrong, as you can see by these quotes, it is your vile genocidal god's doing.


Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?
In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.

John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

Regards
DL

Regards
DL