Gransnet guidelines

Atheism; a non-prophet organisation

"closes the door on informative and intellectual debate"
Smileless: I always thought that any sort of debate required at least two parties! To shut one side down simply because the other side takes offence and refuses to debate is tantamount to censorship and denial of free speech!

Nobody is shutting down debate * rufus2* - there was no debate as such, just a lot of verbose sermonising, some rude epithets, some pseudo- theological theories and some extreme rudeness to individuals which did nothing to encourage any reasonable debate.

I think it's unecessarily unkind and disrespectful to come on a form headed 'Religion and Spirituality' and mock and insult someone's God in the way this poster obviously did.

Pathetic really.

Good thing the thread was deleted. For whatever reason it was.

Reminds me of threads long ago on GN about some kind of sky fairy creature. (Can't remember what they called it. Others might) Deliberately provocative and clever-clever.

Rufus:

"To shut one side down simply because the other side takes offence and refuses to debate is tantamount to censorship and denial of free speech! " exactly! Me, I need debate.

However others have another sort of need that is nothing to do with debate but is to do with religious devotions together with others of the same mind. Debate has no place here, and there needs to be a demarcated sacrosanct area in gransnet where religious devotions may be done in safety.

Debate is fine. Deliberately taking the mick is not.

I agree with you Alexa.

It seems those who will jump to condemn any insult or attack on some religions, feel it is perfectly OK to insult or attack Christianity.

I have no problem discussing religion with non-believers, because I respect their right to not believe - as long as they respect my right to believe.

Insulting someone's beliefs is not intellectual discussion but a form of bullying.

Nobody is shutting down debate

Then what does "deleted" mean then?
I am no way "religious"; just following this rather confusing "pseudo debate" with an open mind.!

Alexa
I think I may have been the one who received the "shove it" reply and I was also told that my post showed what a horrible person I was. All I had done was point out the logical circularity of any "debate" in the OP, and the illogicality of ranting against a God he didn't believe in for choosing to create him as an unbeliever. I suggested that an active mind without enough to occupy it would be better employed trying to solve one of the many problems that the world faces.

Further posts from the original poster were just more ranting and incoherency. It wasn't debate. The poster seemed to be high on anti-Christian fervour, repeating one of those artificial conundrums invented many centuries ago by ascetic savants to torture entertain themselves during long dark monastery evenings, and winding himself into a spiral of anger and self-pity about it. There would be no debating with that person. It would just rise hgher and higher into hysteria.

("anti-Christian fervour" is putting it charitably, it actually sounded to me remarkably like someone who had been using mind-altering substances and was releasing their underlying tensions in a Jihadi-style verbal attack)

Rufus Did you read the actual thread while it was there, or are you going by the second-hand reports of it?

I wouldn't have deleted it. If it wasn't to be kept going, it would have been better to close it to further posts, but to leave it there so that people saw how it was moving, and know why it was closed.

Do we think Cari and Lara are having the day off?

To have an informative and intellectual debate, requires all who are taking part to 'listen' to what is being said and then if in disagreement, do so in an appropriate manner Rufus.

Despite the efforts of some, the thread deteriorated due to as Elegran's posted the "ranting and incoherency" from the OP.

That's a good point Elegran' had the thread been shut down but not deleted it would have enabled anyone not familiar with the content to see why it was deleted.

"It seems those who will jump to condemn any insult or attack on some religions, feel it is perfectly OK to insult or attack Christianity" sad but true Beckett.

trisher

I agree there are a lot of delicate flowers on Gransnet......i am guessing it is a generational thing???

Is it?

I like a robust debate. I didn't read the post in question though

Gonegirl We are discussing things in our usual conversational tone, and making some points that Cari and Lara would probably have made themselves if they weren't restricted by having to be so neutral about everything. I daresay they are quite happy to let us make them.

But... but... it's definitely a thread about a thread.

Nah. I reckon they're all having a party.

pinkquartz If it is a generational thing, then it is not the oldest generation of Gransnetters. They seem to be more able to cope with blasphemy, bad language and and grown-ups having tantrums than those ten or fifteen years younger.

Gonegirl Perhaps the younger adminners, who are rather quicker off the mark, are all on holiday at the moment?

pinkquartz I don't know about that, I'm not that young!!! But then I suppose I've met a lot of people (including some children) whose language was much riper than anything on GN. You get immune. The first time a child told me to "F off" I was shocked but I wouldn't be now (and yes he was disciplined but he had major emotional issues so he would do it again)

Taking into account the responses that those who challenged Gnostic received, I think it's safe to say those that were prepared to challenge him/her were certainly not "delicate flowers" pinkquartz.

Beckett:
"Insulting someone's beliefs is not intellectual discussion but a form of bullying." Would you not object to and argue against Nazism , or ISIS beliefs?

Beliefs are not individuals, and in a free society it's understood that if somebody makes their belief public someone else may morally and legally dispute it.

Elegran:

"Alexa
I think I may have been the one who received the "shove it" reply and I was also told that my post showed what a horrible person I was. All I had done was point out the logical circularity of any "debate" in the OP, and the illogicality of ranting against a God he didn't believe in for choosing to create him as an unbeliever. I suggested that an active mind without enough to occupy it would be better employed trying to solve one of the many problems that the world faces.

Further posts from the original poster were just more ranting and incoherency. It wasn't debate. The poster seemed to be high on anti-Christian fervour, repeating one of those artificial conundrums invented many centuries ago by ascetic savants to torture entertain themselves during long dark monastery evenings, and winding himself into a spiral of anger and self-pity about it. There would be no debating with that person. It would just rise hgher and higher into hysteria.

("anti-Christian fervour" is putting it charitably, it actually sounded to me remarkably like someone who had been using mind-altering substances and was releasing their underlying tensions in a Jihadi-style verbal attack)"

Thanks Elegran. True, Gnostic's use of English is not very explicit or lucid.
I moderate another forum where your opinion would be welcome . There has been the rare poster there who attacks the person not the person's ideas and I'd not permit that, in accordance with the rules of the website owner. And in the interest of good debate too of course. Ad hominems are absurd.

It should be possible to object too and argue without being offensive Alexa even if one finds what they're objecting too offensive.

No one is saying or has said that one shouldn't be able to express their belief.

Smilless, it's about what I may take offence at. If the whole point of the thread is to discuss God or anything else then I may not take offence it someone disagrees and rebuts my argument. If the response does nothing but denigrate me for expressing this opinion, i.e ad hominem, then I point out their response is invalid.

If as has been said the response is not only invalid but rude I tell the person they have been rude and I'd like an apology. If they persist in being rude they get a warning and then deleted if necessary. It seldom comes to this I may
say, as most people value the forum and want it to proceed .

Sorry: Smileless.