Will the Catholic Church be damaged by yesterday's wedding at Westminster Cathedral?

Galaxy

It's interesting that people are getting agitated about it being discussed

That's because I can think of several things at once but I can assure you it's not this which is making me agitated - this is a bit of light relief!

Its drip drip though isn't it. Hopefully it will mean all churches pronouncements on morality and their involvement in education will end. Hopefully each little drip leads to that.

LullyDully

(Just a thought; the marriage of Henry viii and Ann Boleyn may have had more affect on the Catholic Church than that of Boris and Carrie.)

Indeed LullyDully. I’m sure you’re right.

Its drip drip though isn't it. Hopefully it will mean all churches pronouncements on morality and their involvement in education will end. Hopefully each little drip leads to that.

I am with you on that.

I am governor at a non-aligned primary school - the children are of course taught about religions - quite right. But Christianity gets the lion's share and the vicar is always bobbing in and out. Does not seem right to me.

The idea of Boris being a catholic is laughable.....he does not abide by even the most basic of Christian principles, let alone the more stringent rules of catholicism.

What this seems to mean is that a man (or even a woman I suppose) could conduct several marriages in non-faith or religions other than Catholic, have children in those marriages, then as long as the person they choose to have a new relationship with is Catholic and has never been married, they can have a church wedding.
Makes a mockery of the whole thing doesn't it?

trisher

What this seems to mean is that a man (or even a woman I suppose) could conduct several marriages in non-faith or religions other than Catholic, have children in those marriages, then as long as the person they choose to have a new relationship with is Catholic and has never been married, they can have a church wedding.
Makes a mockery of the whole thing doesn't it?

Well it seems a lot more realistic than annulment, leaving people in unhappy and possibly abusive marriages and preventing people from taking communion. I'd say it was a step in the right direction. It seems that in the Catholic church someone can commit a terrible crime, ask for forgiveness and they are treated with compassion. Someone can marry the wrong person in complete faith and are denied the opportunity of moving on with the blessing of the church. Doesn't sound very fairto me but are we just having a go because it's BJ?

Totally agree with MerylStreep and Mattsmum2.

Considerably less damaged by this event than by the actions of many of its trusted priests over the years.......

foxie48

trisher

What this seems to mean is that a man (or even a woman I suppose) could conduct several marriages in non-faith or religions other than Catholic, have children in those marriages, then as long as the person they choose to have a new relationship with is Catholic and has never been married, they can have a church wedding.
Makes a mockery of the whole thing doesn't it?

Well it seems a lot more realistic than annulment, leaving people in unhappy and possibly abusive marriages and preventing people from taking communion. I'd say it was a step in the right direction. It seems that in the Catholic church someone can commit a terrible crime, ask for forgiveness and they are treated with compassion. Someone can marry the wrong person in complete faith and are denied the opportunity of moving on with the blessing of the church. Doesn't sound very fairto me but are we just having a go because it's BJ?

foxie48 How would annulment work when there are children? No one is saying anyone should stay in an abusive marriage. But a third marriage? In church?
Are the vows made then flexible? I've no objection to anyone finishing a relationship and finding a new partner and marrying them. I just don't understand how the vows made can be made more than once in a church., and why the vows made in another church cn be ignored.

The Roman Catholic church is far bigger worldwide than to be damaged or even rocked slightly by one divorced man, whether lapsed or non-Catholic, marrying a Catholic woman in a Catholic place of worship. We don't know what form of ceremony it was, perhaps they married a few days previously and it may not even have been a marriage but a blessing.

trisher I mentioned annulment because that is the only way that a RC married in a RC church can marry again in a RC church unless of course the spouse is dead. Pre 2015 it could only be done via the Vatican and it made a lot of money for the church. As to an abusive relationship, I think there are some RCs who would consider it irreligious to divorce even an abusive spouse. I try not to be judgmental about the mistakes that people make in life, I've made enough of my own. As I've said, I am not a fan of BJ but I wish him well with his third wife.

trisher

What this seems to mean is that a man (or even a woman I suppose) could conduct several marriages in non-faith or religions other than Catholic, have children in those marriages, then as long as the person they choose to have a new relationship with is Catholic and has never been married, they can have a church wedding.
Makes a mockery of the whole thing doesn't it?

If the rule applied equally to all Catholics but I can assure you it doesn't.

What are the implications for the children from previous mariages and/or relationships? From the pov of inheritance, and more.

May I sincerely thank all those who are discussing this, whether they agree or not. All polite discussion is valuable.

Just shutting any debate is so negative and narrow minded.

Kali2

What are the implications for the children from previous mariages and/or relationships? From the pov of inheritance, and more.

Apparently Boris is impoverished so I don't know if there would be any inheritance to worry about but would they be liable to pay for his care home?

Sorry, that was tongue in cheek

Well, I am a catholic and I think it sends a wrong message.

In the past when catholicism ran deep in catholic families and there was antagonism between all christian denominations, then a catholic marrying other than in the church was deeply shocking, and seen as a public rejection of the church, so coming back and having a marriage in the church, ignoring anything previous, marked a return to the catholic 'family' someone returning to regular mass, taking part in church proceedings

Nowadays it is very different, especially in the case of Boris and wife, Boris was baptised a catholic because his mother was, but that is as far as his catholicism goes, he did not grow up in a catholic family, he did not go to catholic schools, he was confirmed into the CoE, he has never been a practising catholic, and he has 2 previous wives and documented lovers.

His wife was baptised a catholic, as was their son, but I know little of whether she was brought up a catholic or sees herself as a practising catholic.

Perhaps I cynical, possibly heretical, but I cannot but wonder whether the two of them resurrected their catholic heritage and had their son baptised because by doing that Carrie Symnds could have the big white wedding and walk up the aisle in style because, I suspect Boris was disqualified in some way from marrying in a CoE church.

Personally, in this modern day and age I think the catholic church should require proof of their return to the faith they were baptised in before they are married in a catholic church, for example going to Mass every Sunday for a year not living together, and remaining celibate until the marriage.

Current catholic procedure needs revising.

Monica, although i follow the logic of your reasoning, if your penultimate paragraph become the rule, i think there would be v few marriages in catholic church.

also, just to be a bit pedantic, although it is a fundamental point, no one is baptised a catholic.
a person is baptised a christian, which may take place in a catholic church.

In most marriages in a catholic church, even today, one partner will have been brought up a catholic and they will be marrying in the church their parents attend. Whether the bride or groom are practicing catholics at the time of the marriage is a seperate issue.

With the Johnsons, neither seems to have had a catholic upbringing in any form nor parents who practiced their religion either. One at least claimed enough attachmnt to another denomination to have been accepted for confirmation within that denomination. Beyond baptism neither they or their parents seem to have shown any interest in being catholics and nor have their children.

I think which denomination a parent chooses to have their child baptised within is generally taken to be a signal of the denomination the parent/s, and therefore the child ascribe to.

well no, not in case of infant baptism, unless that individual later confirms their allegiance, including by choosing the further rite of confirmation.
i know what you mean. but obviously an infant cannot ascribe to anything.

It does make you think that Johnson must have very good personal persuasive powers. He managed to make a priest believe he was mistaken about 2 marriages, his other children didn't count, but he has had a complete conversion and will now live a life according to the rules of the Catholic Church.
Mind I do think he should have been questioned by a nun (like the one in Derry Girls) she would have seen through him.

Not sure this will, after all they have survived many instances of paedophile priests abusing young boys, snatching babies away from unmarried mothers and illegal adoptions and weren't there dead babies found in a convent in Ireland?

No worse than what was being done by other denominations and social work and goernment policy and usually the general consent of society, at the time they happened.

Sadly paedophiles seek, in a very calculated way to find the opportunities for unsupervised contact with children whether churches, scouts, or care homes.

This is no way defends are justifies the terrible things that happened, but these problems were not unique to the catholic church.

I'm reading a book about Katherine Parr all be it fiction it does make you realise how far we have moved on with religious tolerance in England or supposed to have. Though the Northern Irish are not so sure.
Does it matter where Boris married as the saying goes"When the mistress is married, who replaces the mistress?".The next might be Muslim one of his ancestors was Turkish.

"This is no way defends are justifies the terrible things that happened, but these problems were not unique to the catholic church."
No, but what is unique is the way that the Catholic church covered up abuse and the people involved stretch from the local parish right to the very top. That is before you get to the death of babies in their care, the abuse of single mothers by the likes of nuns etc and the facilitating of the spread of AIDS in Africa. BoJo's marriage pales into insignificance.