losing faith in a loving god

Hi Luckygirl no, my father had no beliefs that I am aware of and although my mother said she was Chapel she made no mention of religion. None of my family are religious including DH. It is only me.
I did go to Sunday school and was confirmed but I think my faith grew stronger later in life. I always felt there was something I believed in.
I don’t blame you for not understanding, I can hardly do so myself. If I’d had the same upbringing as you perhaps I would think differently too. It’s not like I’ve lived a life without problems or troubles.
Many of those on this thread and others say they were raised Catholic. I’m not sure I would feel as I do if I had been brought up with some of the things you had to go through.
I have never believed that only Christians can be good or kind.
Just like I don’t believe that all those who say they are humanists are all good and kind. We are all a mixture of things. Good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things. We all follow our own path.

Luckygirl3, I see the common belief in religion as easily explained by animistic thinking. It's just the way our minds tend to work. I had interesting conversations with a teacher of Psychology and RE - who was an atheist but found world religions a fascinating subject.

I think you are entirely right that you cannot explain faith to someone who has never experienced it. It is clearly something that is very important in your life and I am glad for you. It clearly feels right for you. Just don't expect me to understand it!!

Just out of interest, were you brought up in a Christian family?

For context, I had a mixed upbringing. My father was what I would call a raving atheist - he was very damaged by and bitter about the war - it turned him from a practising Christian (although I only know that because his mother told me - he said nothing about it) to someone who felt that goodness had left the world. My mother was brought up a Catholic and had a deep hatred of that religion - her father was brought up in a Catholic children's home, where unspeakable cruelties and indignities were perpetrated on him. During her adult life she vaguely sought to find some sort of faith and we children were dragged around various different churches for a while, then she gave it all up.

My first 3 years of schooling were in a private C of E school run by nuns - I was sent there because the local primary was not thought to be good enough. I hated the place. I was terrified of the nuns and even more terrified of the utterly grim near-life size carvings of the stations of the cross and the crucifixion - truly truly grim. The stuff of nightmares to a child. I still cannot understand how people can stand up in church and sing happy hymns with images of blood and cruelty in front of them.

No wonder I have decided that just being as kind as I can has to be the way forward.

How can you explain faith to someone. I have never seen God, heard his voice or had a visitation.
I feel a presence very occasionally, a connection when all seems lost. Once and sadly only once, an overwhelming sense of peace, a feeling so strong that it has stayed with me years later. A thought deep within me.
Whenever things are tough I turn to God almost unconsciously without thought just straight away in my mind. God save them, God help them. To me it’s like breathing. Not something I do consciously it just happens.
I can understand why others who don’t feel like this feel it’s all mumbo jumbo. But you can’t stop me believing, only I can do that if I lose my faith.
Not every prayer is answered and maybe if it is then not in the way you expect but don’t tell me not to bother because it’s a part of me I cannot explain.
I don’t believe for one minute that to be kind or caring you have to believe because I know so many who don’t believe who work so hard for others. Nor do I believe that all those who say they believe in God are good people because saying you believe is only words. I don’t know God exists any more than those who say he doesn’t know that he doesn’t. I have a faith and hope that he does.

I don't believe that God has control over the world Luckygirl.

I still have to ask, why then thank him for the good things that happen if he has no control over them? If Christians believe that god is to be thanked when good things happen, then this clearly implies that god had something to do with them.

An interesting poem Coastpath

Here is another take on it all:

Breath of Angels

I do not hear the breath of angels
I do not kneel and humbly pray
I do not sense the moving of the spirit
Or thank a lord for every dawning day

I do not see the need for praising.
I do not find the world that kind.
I do not share the guilt of ages
For ancient crimes I cannot call to mind

I do not place that burden on my children
I do not seek a meaning where there's none
I do not spend my time in striving
To solve life's mysteries; chase the sun.

I do not waste my life in speculation
I do not turn away reality
I do not rate the lives of mystics
Who hide away from life's brutality

I do not shun the mess of loving
I do not seek an outside hand to guide
I do not want a ghostly being
Forever skulking at my side

I want to greet the world in all its sorrow
I want to taste the joy before it dies
I want the sullied purity of living
And do not look for heaven as a prize.

I've posted this on GN before, but it means a lot to me and I thought it might stand another posting here.

Recipe for Humanity by Grayson Perry

You will die, you are alone
There is no god upon his throne
Impose your will upon earth's mess
Else your life is meaningless
No hell below, no heaven above
Live life now and act with love.

oops to a high mountain.

I think you put that very well Greenfinch.

I'd be very impressed too Farzanah if I met anyone who has a hotline to God's thoughts and feelings and have yet to meet them.

I don't believe that God has control over the world Luckygirl.
When Jesus was being tempted by Satan, Satan took him to high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. He told Jesus that if he bowed down and worshipped him, he would give him all these things, suggesting that they were not God's to give (Mathew 4 v 1 -11).

Bring on the cake!!

I feel the same about those LuckyG who have said on occasion that they are praying for me, because it makes me aware of their love and care for me. Even better if they bring a cake

volver

That sounds a bit ominous ??

Mmmmm.

Knowledge and faith are two completely different things, and this is at the centre of the discussion. To those who do not have faith, then a lot of what is said is of course meaningless - that does not mean it is not important to those who hold that faith and that we who do not should respect that - as part of the humanist doctrine of kindness.

Many people have faith because they were brought up to it - it is pretty random really.

Paddyann's friend who "found Jesus" is part of my fundamental mistrust of religion - you can be kind without the need for all that distasteful stuff.

I think prayer does have a value - but not in a vacuum. When I was struggling with caring for a dying husband, there were several of my friends who said they were praying for me - I appreciated that and found it helpful. But is was only helpful because I knew they were doing so and took comfort in that; they were sending me a caring message. Even better were those who prayed and also actually turned up to help me, visited OH in hospital and sat reading to him, looked after him while I had an afternoon out.

Many of those who prayed did only that and nothing more.

That sounds a bit ominous ??

I recognise you volver ?

Farzanah

If prayer gives a person peace of mind I think that’s positive, and if praying for others others helps to encourage help or compassion it must be helpful.
I get similar feelings from meditation.

With you on all that.

Smileless2012

^It is all about interpretation^ no, it is all about faith. I believe that He has been with me in my misery but never believed that what made me miserable was Him working in mysterious ways.

I am asking a serious question here - I respect that this is your faith. I am asking because it is incomprehensible to me.

Why do you believe that god should be thanked when good things happen (which implies you think he had something to do with it or you would not be thanking him) but he should not be cursed when bad things happen (because believing that he makes good things happen implies that he has control over the world and can choose equally to make good or bad things happen)?

I absolutely agree with you AGGA4. We all find a way to navigate this life which can be difficult at times, and I respect that religious belief gives comfort and meaning to some.

Yes paddyann54 we all at some point in our lives experience both hell and heaven on earth. I am a Christian but believe that your friend who found Jesus was very wrong to say that unless you were saved you would burn in hell. That is a very old fashioned view which is not right in today's society. I know people of different faiths and some of none, that is fine with me because we are all different. My faith is important to me but I do not and nor would I impose it upon other people.

Smileless2012

He isn't my God Blondiescote.

I've already explained Farzanah that true love cannot be taught or instilled in us. In addition it cannot be forced or bought, it's either there or it isn't.

Well, whoever or whatever is it you are praying to then!

Greenfinch

Prayer is not only about asking it is also about listening. If you have someone on your mind you may receive thoughts of how to help them, you may come to hear that that is a matter of time and you need to be patient or indeed the healing comes through death which is not the answer you want.Some people take great comfort in knowing they are being upheld by others.
Very different is praying for people in a war zone where you have no personal influence. God is not a deus ex machina. He cannot make people behave in a particular way just as we cannot make our children behave in a particular way but I do believe he is present in the suffering,is saddened by it and can comfort and support those in distress.

Oh, I'm going to get grief for this, but....

That's just gobbledegook.

I am always impressed by those who have a hot line to God’s thoughts and feelings. I do agree about prayer and listening. Sitting quietly as in prayer or meditation for example can help us to be more aware of our thoughts and feelings and can give a certain amount of peace, and yes happiness and kindness too.

I hold beliefs very similar to "christian" beliefs ,I call them humanitarian.My granny called them Socialist ,its one of the reasons she joined the labour party as soon as she was allowed (she was a suffragette) although she was also a Roman catholic
We believe in caring for the sick ,the vulnerable those in need here and across the world ..of all colours and creeds .We volunteer and donate to the homeless, the hungry those who are lonely or worried.My GP's and my parents regularly had people staying with them who had hit hard times to help them get back on their feet .
Its a bit more work than a few words at bedtime to a god who may or may not decide your cause is worth the trouble but as a family its how we roll.My daughter and my GC are all of the same mindset .I dont think we need a GOD to justify behaving well towards others .I was told by an ex friend who had "found Jesus" that unless I was SAVED I would burn in hell .I'll take my chances but I believe that WE make our own heaven or hell here on earth .

If people derive comfort from a belief in God then I would not want them to change.
I come from a family of scientists and my belief in God when I was a child was soon questioned logically round the dinner table.

It stands to reason and logic that it can’t volver or else we’d be living in a very odd unscientific world me thinks.

Prayer is not only about asking it is also about listening. If you have someone on your mind you may receive thoughts of how to help them, you may come to hear that that is a matter of time and you need to be patient or indeed the healing comes through death which is not the answer you want.Some people take great comfort in knowing they are being upheld by others.
Very different is praying for people in a war zone where you have no personal influence. God is not a deus ex machina. He cannot make people behave in a particular way just as we cannot make our children behave in a particular way but I do believe he is present in the suffering,is saddened by it and can comfort and support those in distress.