cliques in churches

From St. Augustine in the 4th century I think ExDancer. The words 'peace be with you' to be said at the end of the Lord's Prayer.

Thanks for that Smileless. However, as a child I attended church every week and it was NEVER said. I think I first came across it when I moved here in the 1960s - they went to huge trouble updating the prayer book language, but inserted that out of date phrase.
(I also don't like drinking from the same cup as someone else, although has stopped since covid)
And the cliques still remain!

That's interesting ExDancer maybe it depends on individual churches. I think some churches have re introduced sharing the chalice but ours hasn't which I think is sensible.

Yes, the cliques remain don't they and we're happy not to be included in them.

ExDancer

Thats why I stopped attending our village church, well 'that' and the stupid practise of shaking hands and saying the utterly ridiculous phrase of "peace be with you" (who thought that one up?).

It was Jesus himself who 'thought that one up'. 'and Jesus came and stood among them and he said to them, '*Peace be with you*'. John 20 - 19

i think it was revived in mainstream churches after the influence of vatican II.
it certainly is v ancient and was practised in the early church.
as to how well it travels/translates into contemporary western culture, and whether that ought to be a consideration, is a moot point.
communion is partaken by receiving the consecrated host alone; there is no necessity to take the cup, even where it is offered.

Churches are full of people like you and me.

People form into friendship groups.

Others sometimes find that difficult.

Tight circles are not welcoming. That should somehow be made clear.

My suggestion is not to stay away, but rather have courage to persist. One attends church to worship and to draw strength from the worship. Eventually tight circles will either change or decay.

Bless you!

My religion is Kindness - like Buddhism it requires no deity, but hopefully it makes lives happier.

Organised religion terrifies me; being judgemental is an inevitable result. You cannot judge others if you resolve to be kind to them - the two don't work in tandem.

Insightful, Luckygirl3. Thanks.

However isn't Kindness a key to living rather than a spiritual world view...

I'm not so sure about organised religion inevitably resulting in judgement - but fear it very often does..

I only went to church because the man I supported wanted to go, but often in the winter, when I was trudging to the bus stop after 10pm, one of the church members would pull up and insist on bringing me home.

I don’t recognise any of the churches I have attended in these descriptions. All the ones I have come across have really good pastoral care and reach out to the homeless in the community by offering free meals and help where possible. There is no holier than thou attitude whatsoever. I think the people who have come across these ‘Christian’ churches have been most unfortunate and should take a good look round for decent places of worship.

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That’s sad not all churches are like that. Ours is very welcoming and if people want to go and can’t get there they ring a number and a church member will give them a lift.

We get involved in a lot of community things and there’s coffee after every service . I attended after moving to a new area and 6 years later am very involved in church and have made many friends . It’s not the church that’s the problem but the people

Christianity teaches that all of us are sinners. ie we all sometime fail to stick to the ideals our religion teaches us. I can well understand someone e moving to another churcch because they just do not like their local church, but leaving your religion because you do not like the minister or congregation, always puzzles me, surely you ought to be able to see the difference between the core truths of the religion you espouse and the fact, as Christianity tells us, we are all flawed human beings and will attimes fall from the high standards we set ourselves.

Great poem Calendargirl so true.

It's a shame to give up on church going red1 I'm sure there must be other ones who are not 'cliquey'. The support and friendship of congregations is as important as the worship I think.
I do agree though it's not necessary to attend church to pursue a Christian life.

How can you have fellowship if there is none available? (Even Jesus shook the sand off his feet when he was not welcome and commanded His disciples to do the same.)

Cliques are the opposite of love and fellowship, promoting divisions instead of unity, choosing to focus on what divides instead of what unites. It's biblical to shake the sand off your feet and go somewhere else.

Aldom

ExDancer

Thats why I stopped attending our village church, well 'that' and the stupid practise of shaking hands and saying the utterly ridiculous phrase of "peace be with you" (who thought that one up?).

It was Jesus himself who 'thought that one up'. 'and Jesus came and stood among them and he said to them, '*Peace be with you*'. John 20 - 19

It is by turning, shaking hands and speaking to the person next to you that breaks down barriers within the congregation and shows us that we are all one comunity.

Actions speak louder than words, so guess what, I don't look at what someone does on a sunday when everyone is looking, I see if they will say hello in the street on a weekday or if they include me in the groups and are friendly from day to day.

Churches that have an inner circle and secret groups they don't include outsiders in feel false. Some will use zoom to create a distance between members because they do not want people to talk to each other, oh no.

Even when the threat of covid was lessened many still stuck to zoom but met in person in the church with the people they chose when it suited them. This isn't church, it's a clique.

I voted with my feet because I saw the light and it wasn't there!

We had zoom when we were forbidden to meet by our illustrious premier. Now a few people who live a long way away continue zooming ( or teaming as it is for our church) but the rest of us meet in person unless we have a cough or sore throat. The ones who are a way away are typically a few hours drive so ,understandably, they don’t want to spend half a day for an hour and a half service. When we all had to zoom we had breakout rooms after the service where we were matched ,totally randomly, with 6 or so others for a general chat and prayer. Seemed to work ok and I got to know some I hadn’t really spoken to before. We also have an online prayer meeting weekly with a few of us who can’t do night driving. So zoom does have a place.

God does not like gossiping. I'd stick to God and realise that humans often fail. Perhaps the Minister could do a sermon on how gossip is considered to be ungodly, sinful, and causes nothing but misery.

If you belong to a religion , which itself is a clique, then you realistically have to expect cliques within that clique.

Redl, you may like the novels of Barbara Pym which are light hearted stories about religious cliques mostly in the C of E.

Marcus Aurelius wrote we should live a life of virtue and kindness towards others for no other reason that we should so live it as naturally as bees make honey.

Any twirly bits (bells, smells, incense, services, membership of organisations, tithing, fasting etc.) are surely tangential to that.

On another topic; I have purchased a £62 tefal induction hob which is transformative in our kitchen. Any recommendations for suitable kettles that are induction friendly but do not have handles that require asbestos gloves in order to make the tea?

Vintagenonna, religious attendance should always be handled with asbestos gloves.

It seems a sad thing to abandon Christian faith because of the behaviour of certain people in one church. When our children were small they attended Brownies, Cubs etc. and we were often involved in helping at fetes . I met some pleasant people, some with a strong faith that sustained them, but the sniping, backbiting and hateful behaviour of some others was a real eye opener. The cruelty inflicted by her own parents on one teenager who became pregnant was an absolute disgrace - and they were considered 'pillars of the church'. I would never become embroiled with organised religion, but it is possible to lead a Christ like life without involvement in local churches.

During WW2 my gran was ostracised and banned from her Church. She gave sandwiches and bottles of water to the Italian prisoners of war who worked in the village. When confronted she replied where ever her son was she hoped someone was being kind to him and everyone is someone's son or daughter. She also did the same for the Sikh gentleman who came around selling silk ties.
My other gran had two nuns who regularly came for tea and cake and she was a Methodist.