cliques in churches

I go to a United Reformed Church, and they are my second family. Wonderful people, you get help from them whenever you need it which I offered do, yes a real family. No backbiting I’ve never had one of them in the 10 years that I’ve been going to that church say a bad word about anybody.

Probably true about the organisational thing. I mean, they probably have to be organised because there are overheads to pay, boxes to be ticked etc.

We are still pretty much attending online church. Having had a few overbearing but well meaning people try to control my life and give me advice that was not in the bible, I avoid being in that situation. I think if a pastor or church minister tells you what to do, it should at least be backed up by scripture. If it's really not, then it's a warning sign that they just want to control you.

Having lived with overbearing parents who still want to control everything I do (and I resist it), the last thing I want to do is go to a church where I am controlled. People have free will. Even God knows that and designed us that way. Nothing should be forced. I have faith and my faith dictates that I don't have to be controlled, by anyone.

thanks for all the replies,i did take a break from the 'religion' thing. i even returned for a short while to the quakers, which i'd tried before,again it did not do it for me, too idealistic,wooly and where were the working class folk?! I still have a faith not sure where to put it though,on my own ,in my own time.One thing ive learned ,is that large religious organisations are just that, organistations!

A break is definitely good and there are plenty of online church services, so, if you are between churches you can still "attend" somewhere or anywhere in the world, thanks to covid.

I have "visited" places where my feet will probably never tread but it can be interesting and refreshing to visit other Christian denominations. Long term it's not a replacement for human connection, though.

I'd just like to suggest a bit of a break, and consider attending a meeting of the Society of Friends (Quakers) who are in my experience kind and low-key.
An old friend (now dead) was a Friend - every month or so she would forego Meeting and go along to another place of worship. She found different attitudes to religion and newcomers very interesting!

I don't point the finger at any one denomination as there are probably good ones and bad ones within each denomination.

Ultimately, how they treat others is a good indication of who they are. Particularly how they treat those who can do nothing in return.

I don’t like the C of E but that’s my individual choice based on ancient experiences and I suppose I have never had much to do with it apart from attending a C of E school. I didn’t like it then, either.

So sorry StoryNanny. I hope you find another group where you feel a proper welcome and inclusion.

I know too that some of the "best" seeming Christians can be abusers and also I've known of a paedophile who a local "free" church turned a blind eye to his past because he had "repented". Problem was, he used that church to get close to other young kids and he reoffended there, went back to prison and has moved up and down the country since then alternately reoffending and going back to prison. They should be giving out longer sentences for people like him and churches should realise that just because someone says they repent, if they have a history of something, they should not be put in temptation's way.

The church of England is full of bullying in it's own leadership and hierachies, so hardly surprising that filters down to it's congregations, causing ostracisim, factions and ultimately destroying what should be a good thing.

By their fruits you will know them. It doesn't matter what the denomination is, but if they don't treat their neighbour as themselves, keep looking. If ostracised for doing good, keep doing good and be thankful they showed you who they were.

Yammy

During WW2 my gran was ostracised and banned from her Church. She gave sandwiches and bottles of water to the Italian prisoners of war who worked in the village. When confronted she replied where ever her son was she hoped someone was being kind to him and everyone is someone's son or daughter. She also did the same for the Sikh gentleman who came around selling silk ties.
My other gran had two nuns who regularly came for tea and cake and she was a Methodist.

That's so sad Yammy. Treating others as you would like to be treated seems to be a thing that some seem to have forgotten, sadly.
I would have been that lady who reached out to those prisoners, thinking of my own sons.
If the church ostracises someone what does that say about the church? I'm sure not all churches would behave that way, but Id say to anyone ostracised by a church for being kind to strangers is unbiblical, cruel and you're better off finding another church. WWJD?

That’s a shame storynanny and I would have left,too. I hope you find more friendship and support elsewhere. People can be strange is all I can say.

My first emotionally and financially abusive husband was a highly respected local church Christian. My distress and subsequent divorce was ignored by the whole of the church community. I grew up in a Christian household and do believe in God but I don’t go to church.
I recently joined a group of charity knitters attached to a different local church. It’s a good job I didn’t go there for any sort of companionship or because I was lonely! The clique of women could barely be bothered to speak to me. I showed an interest in everything they were making, offered to wash up etc. I went for 3 weeks and have now given that group up.

Standard during Catholic mass., Peace be with you and shake hands all round.

I’ve never,ever been in a church where people say ‘peace be with you’. Maybe it is a British thing? It sounds a bit strange to me. More normal seems to be ‘how are you going?’

I used to belong to a church where there was certainly a hierarchy of Sunday attenders and cliques. It never bothered me much as I didn’t go to to be with them I went to be with God in a quiet place. I went to an early service. Prayed and left. There were several really kind people there apart from the cliques and some went out of their way to help me.
I am now in a church that’s whole purpose seems to be helping others. Every day of the week the church is open for some group or other to offer support. Hot soup and conversation for those struggling. Bereavement gatherings all sorts.

If you say Peace be with you like you would say “ how are you today” or “ hasn’t the weather been awful” etc then I can understand why people are not keen on it. Peace itself is the most wonderful thing and if you say the words with meaning what could be better than wishing someone Peace in their lives.

Caleoo - respect!!!!

Oh Juggernaut what a ghastly individual. She clearly didn't read her Bible, and the instruction to 'Go forth and evangelise', or think about the fact that the life she demonstrated might be the only Bible some people would read. Those with such views would have made excellent Crusaders - 'Believe in the Prince of Peace or I will slash you to ribbons. What a nasty experience for you.

I’m not a Christian but have friends who are very serious about their faith and I respect that. What I don’t understand is that it is expected that churchgoers should be any better/nicer than others.
Like any other institution surely it will be a cross section of society, good, bad and indifferent?

Perhaps not so much nowadays on reflection, as church goers are generally older folk. Not including the younger evangelical “house” churches.

I like what that great philosopher “MOnica” says be merciful to the sinners and consider what it is about you that might have contributed to your unhappiness.

Good post there M0nica. I do believe we need each other in our faith, if only for encouragement and deeper understanding. Of course you do not absolutely have to attend a church but I think it helps. My MIL had a deep and abiding faith but wouldn’t go to church because of some of the reasons others have cited but it is sad that she couldn’t share her faith with fellow believers. At that time none of our family either believed or attended church.

Churches and congregations are not religions. The religion is the teachings and writings of the founder.

However, the first things I understood about the religion I was born into was
1) We are akk equal in the sight of God
2) Everyone is sinful.

In modern terms 1) we are all equal, in the eyes of everybody and 2) None of us is perfect and we are all capapble of doing things that are wrong - and that applies to other people as well as church goers.

But at the end of the day it is whether you ascribe to the teachings of the religion you claim, rather than whether you like the people you meet at church that should decide which religion you profess. You can always change church, or stay away. But I do not understand why you would give up the religious principles you ascribe to just because the people at church do not practie what they preach. Be merciful to the sinners - and consider what there is about you that might have contributed to your unhappiness.

I'm not a fan of Organised Religion, no matter what they call themselves.
However, I will say that over the years, some of the nastiest, most poisonous people I have come across have been Church goers!
A pillar of our local C of E Church, who had known me for over twenty years professionally, discovered that I'm an Atheist, and attempted to start a petition to have me removed from my post, as she suddenly decided that I was not a fit and proper person to do the job.
When asked why she felt this way, she openly said she hated all Atheists! Now, I may be wrong, but I thought that was a pretty poor attitude for a 'Christian' to have. I may not have a particular faith, but I would never behave as she did!
Fortunately, no-one else agreed with her, and the only name on the petition was hers!

Churches are for sinners. I go every week. I recognise my need of God, for repentance and forgiveness.

Thinking aloud.
It is an interesting view, but lends itself to cliques as well. who chooses whom to invite to the house meeting, where 2 or 3 are gathered together? Is there not a possibility of exclusion there and so on.

Agreed Caleo; I heard someone put a good point for not having churches at all some years ago. He said that Jesus had never spoken of having specific buildings, and rituals - simply 'For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.' An interesting view. I struggle to reconcile with the wealth and trappings of the Church when so many live in poverty and want.

I agree with you Rosina. Moreover it's not a good idea to stop seeking God simply because you are independent of any religion. God is not the intellectual or spiritual property of any religion.

Farzanah

BlueBelle

I don’t understand why you need a church or a name to live a decent life surely being Christian, Muslim, Sikh whatever is just a name for a group of people who are trying to live life caring for and about others and not breaking codes of healthy happy living I don’t understand why you need a ‘group thing’ yes I ve seen nastiness in churches I ve also known a paedophile who was a big name in a local church and no I m not gossiping he was in prison for his activities
Some churchgoers are holier than thou but just as damaged as or more so as non churchgoers

I agree BB I am a humanist and certainly don’t need a belief in a supernatural being to guide me in living a good life and caring for others. Do unto others as you would have them do to you is a universal truth.
Respecting all sentient beings and taking joy in the world around, with feelings of awe and wonder at times is not exclusive to those with a religious faith.
You can enjoy company with like minded people without a church.

Farzanah so you can, indeed. To be fair to the posters above, I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

I'm a Quaker, we don't have a creed nor "leaders" or vicars,

and I became one simply because I felt the wellsprings of a spirit that is in us yet beyond us without any family or even friend connections,

although I had met Quakers when my humanist parents were involved in the Peace Movements post WW2. I suppose it was a call in my heart that I had to listen to, an inevitable based in the simple faith of our very good headteacher at school.

But I'm equally likely to listen, when it comes to words, to a Buddhist or follower of another faith.

I could never accept a creed personally with the weight of historical abuses of the message of compassionate love and community although I know more conventional Christians whose views hardly differ from mine.

I don't believe in original sin, nor a "god" like a person who can change our everyday paths in life, because I think that to live is to be given the gift of choice towards living in love or evil, but we trip up all the time. Living in the Light involves specific commitments to each other which make cliques almost impossible, as there are few opportunities to hold power: meeting officers can only occupy positions for limited time periods.

The cliques described appall me but its true, they are in every walk of life. Quakers have ways of resolving disagreements which generally involve meetings (often endless) to try and hear out differences but inevitably sometimes its best to try another meeting.