Out of the mouths of babes ........

Mollygo

Fleurpepper
I personally feel that religious schools should not exist- but if they do, then it should be entirely the parents choice and totally separate.
I agree with that, though I chose a religious primary for my children and they chose a religious high school, both for themselves and their children. They learnt about different religious beliefs and practices as well as Christianity.
If you live in an area where a Church school is the only primary school available, unless you want to drive your children to the nearest state school, parents should be reminded of their right to withdraw children from RE.

Yes, I know. but this is not the point, If I live in a village, it should be my right to send my children to the local school, without having to accept the religious teaching, or even endoctrination, and possible discrimination (as in the baptism comments above). You can't withdraw children from RE in primary school, and the Vical lived next door and popped in to classes as he wished to tell or teach the kids whatever and whenever he wanted.

I was very happy for my kids to do RE in their secondary schools, as they learnt about different religions, and that was fine. Well, apart that the option of not having a faith, and still have a strong moral compass and principles. Humanism should be taught alongside.

As a teacher however, I knew that the RE teachers were always very religious themselves, and most of them strongly evangelical, and that they did allow their own faith to have an influence on what they taught.

But withdrawing children from some lessons does have an influence on how those children are perceived by others. Why should anyone have to be withdrawn from any lessons? The Curriculum should be for all. This is so wrong. Schools should be secular- and all religious teaching be done on a voluntary basis outside school hours.

Years ago when teaching the Head decided we would enact the last supper and the rest of the Easter story, children were chosen for the parts and on top of the usual excitement of getting dressed up there was a heightened air. I asked why and they said they were all waiting to see the boy who was playing Joseph be crucified. Children can read a lot into stories and love gore.
I've also been asked why they wanted to crucify a baby they had no concept of time and thought the Christmas baby was being crucified at Easter.

Withdrawing children from RE lessons is not something I ever did in spite of my agnosticism, as it seemed entirely reasonable that they should learn about world religions.

What I do not want to see is religious bias; and I certainly do not want to see an emphasis on the "death cult" aspects.

while rather than go home. I did some gentle probing, thinking he had fallen out with Mum or Dad but no. He was troubled because the school Chaplin had told him the story of the Flight to Egypt and DGS had realised that he was a 1st born Son and wanted to stay at our house so that Herod would not find him and kill him.

Fleurpepper
I personally feel that religious schools should not exist- but if they do, then it should be entirely the parents choice and totally separate.
I agree with that, though I chose a religious primary for my children and they chose a religious high school, both for themselves and their children. They learnt about different religious beliefs and practices as well as Christianity.
If you live in an area where a Church school is the only primary school available, unless you want to drive your children to the nearest state school, parents should be reminded of their right to withdraw children from RE.

Joseanne

Does it matter what we are talking here within reason? Comparisons are allowed.

To Fleurpepper

Does it matter what we are talking here within reason? Comparisons are allowed.

Of course there was a dead body in the tomb:
"And Joseph (of Arimathea) took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud and laid it in his own new tomb;"(Matthew 28 v.59.)
The tomb was empty on Easter Sunday.

Whether you believe in the Resurrection or not it is good that these children are being taught the story of Holy Week; they may choose to reject it, but at least they know the events.
And what on earth do you think is taught in that most popular of Primary School topics, The Egyptians, full of details about the preparation of dead bodies for mummification?

Chaplains do not need to be religious either. Our local hospital has Chaplains of several faiths and secular too. But we are not talking about Independent schools- but local village or town area schools.

I'm not entering the state-funded schools religious argument, but I am glad independent schools have chaplains who go way beyond just teaching the scriptures. The have a very diverse pastoral rôle and respect all faiths. Never witnessed any indoctrination like the above, though there are no doubt a few fanatics about.

I totally agree with that, Fleurpepper. I have always said that state-funded schools should be secular and if religious schools have to exist, then they should be privately funded.

Oreo

Religion doesn’t force anything onto anyone.If you choose to believe and belong to your local church or mosque or whatever then you naturally want your children to be brought up in that faith.When older they can choose for themselves.
It does seem odd if the teacher has asked them to make a clay body but maybe after reading to them about it and making an Easter garden, the child just wants to include it?

Religious schools should be for those who choose them, not imposed on local people. I sent my children to the local school, in our village, where they could walk with their friends, and be with their neighbours. Only to realise quite soon that the Vicar had regular input into classes, and yes, as such, his teachings were forced onto the children, irrespective of their parents' faith or none.

It was quite shocking in one instance, when our child came home in tears, and had nightmares for quite a long time, because of a comment made by said Vicar, as she was not baptised. He told her 'your parents wouldn't be so cruel to not baptise you, as it would mean you don't belong to the family of God and couldn't go to Heaven if you died'.

State schools, funded by the State, should be secular.

I personally feel that religious schools should not exist- but if they do, then it should be entirely the parents choice and totally separate.

Also, with so much ridiculous wokery (e.g. trigger warnings on classic literature) in universities at the moment, maybe a bit of reality (and crucifixion was reality in Jesus's time) doesn't go amiss.

Mind you, the resurrection and reality is another issue 😅

I sympathise, lucky, but having been brought up on gruesome stations of the corss and stories of the lives of martyrs from about the age of nine (from confirmation, which of course confirmed nothing as my later atheism attests), I think kids can handle this stuff.

I find some of the children's films that my grandkids watch utterly terrifying but they seem to be able to go into "unreal" (story) mode and cope fine.

I take it seriously, but I can lighten up about it too!
I'd be pleased the child was showing her flair and creativity in wanting to work with the medium of clay. A corpse is a particularly good example of how you can indent the clay to produce surface textures. KS1 and KS2 are all about experimentation with different media; the godly bit is probably just a convenient topic and a good opportunity to explore this.
Maybe the child will become a sculptor in later life à la Michelangelo.

Joseph went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus
I know I should take it seriously but I couldn’t help thinking that I went to Pilates hoping for the body of Jane Fonda.

Proselytising any religion is unacceptable, particularly schools funded by the state.

No one deity faith can possibly be seen as “the true faith” and it is quite wrong to suggest that it is.

Oreo ... this IS forced on these children. They have no choice about their village school ... the state funds this CofE school .... this is their local school and is in a tiny village in the middle of the country. This is their school. They cannot practically choose another. This is foisted on them.
This is a "grim tale" .... I have just sung the St John Passion and it is grim .... bloody grim. Saying to children that Christians believe that Jesus came back from the dead is fine ... it is part of learning about world religions ... but giving them the task of making a dead body is not appropriate for little ones.
We are "open about the facts of death." These children were actively involved in every step on the way to my OH's death ... nothing was hidden from them ... they helped during his last weeks.
My objections are: that their local school has a religious bias that the parents have no say in; and that a teacher should regard it as appropriate to ask small children to make dead body.
The GD involved clearly does mind about this as she has made it clear that she wants no more of it when she eventually moves to secondary school. This came spontaneously from her.

It did occur that as posted above, it was a kids idea. Then, knowing it mightn't go down well with grandparent, say it was asked for.

I wouldn't think it appropriate for a teacher to suggest it tho.

Some families are open about the facts of death - others try to hide its realities.

I was and am very upset by real cruelty, but I was never worried by the story of the crucifixion. It wasn’t remotely real to to me, just one of those strange historical things you learnt at school, to be forgotten after scripture lessons and hymns in assembly were over. I liked singing hymns, however miserable.

teach them about what are seen as Christian values, but do not fill their heads with this grim tale

It's not a grim tale, it is the main Christian festival of the year and is (or should be) a joyous festival when Jesus arises from the dead.

I will agree with Joseanne that children do love a bit of blood and gore. It probably wouldn't faze her in the slightest to make a body out of clay unless the adults around her express horror.

Children usually like blood, guts, gore and dead bodies. Horrible Histories is full of them. I don't think it is particularly grim or odd.
I'm a Christian but personally I am not keen on the hell, fire and damnation teachings in the school environment. Anything else pretty much is fine.

Religion doesn’t force anything onto anyone.If you choose to believe and belong to your local church or mosque or whatever then you naturally want your children to be brought up in that faith.When older they can choose for themselves.
It does seem odd if the teacher has asked them to make a clay body but maybe after reading to them about it and making an Easter garden, the child just wants to include it?

Matthew 27: 57 . . .
On the evening of Jesus' death, a rich man from Arimathea arrived. His name was Joseph, and he was a disciple of Jesus. Joseph went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. He took the body, wrapped it in a new linen sheet and placed it in his own tomb, which he had just recently dug out of solid rock.
Presumably that’s why she’s doing it. They’ll move on to the amazement and the distress when the women find the stone rolled away and the time empty.
I personally wouldn’t have asked a child to do that, but on the other hand I did ask children to make models so they could demonstrate (pretend) preparing a body for mummification during work on the Ancient Egyptians.

But, odd or not, is it acceptable that children are burdened with this stuff, especially given that it is the only local school? OK ... teach them about what are seen as Christian values, but do not fill their heads with this grim tale.
I was terrified as a small child by the large bas reliefs of the stations of the cross around the chapel. Does any religion have the right to force this on children ? We would not let them watch a film of people being tortured and killed. We would rightly regard that as wholly unacceptable. We would not ask them to make clay models of an assassination for instance, or of slaughtered soldiers in history lessons.
Why do the normal rules of decency and protection of precious growing minds go out of the window when it is in a religious context?