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Religion/spirituality

Out of the mouths of babes ........

(79 Posts)
Luckygirl3 Fri 24-Mar-23 19:33:03

Driving my GD home from primary school, she asked me if I had any clay, and I explained that I did not. I asked her what she wanted to make and she said "A dead body." I did a bit of a double-take and asked her what for. She said it is for school - I have to make one for the Easter Garden.

Is it just me who thinks this is inappropriate and utterly grim? And, as far as I can remember, the tomb was a said to be empty - rather misses the point of the story.

Incidentally the same child is talking with parents about secondary school in the future and she asked whether the options were church schools as she did not want that - she said she had had enough of it all at the village CofE aligned primary school.

Something is going wrong somewhere. No-one has put that idea in her head.

NotSpaghetti Fri 24-Mar-23 21:59:34

Maybe they are making the stations of the cross between the class?
It's not so odd if sthey are.

Callistemon21 Fri 24-Mar-23 22:07:50

cofeportsmouth.contentfiles.net/media/assets/file/Make_an_Easter_Garden_V2Cpjdp.pdf

No dead bodies in this Easter Garden.

Does the teacher understand the Easter story?

crazyH Fri 24-Mar-23 22:09:04

Very strange request from the school - a “dead body” ???

Luckygirl3 Fri 24-Mar-23 22:13:20

But, odd or not, is it acceptable that children are burdened with this stuff, especially given that it is the only local school? OK ... teach them about what are seen as Christian values, but do not fill their heads with this grim tale.
I was terrified as a small child by the large bas reliefs of the stations of the cross around the chapel. Does any religion have the right to force this on children ? We would not let them watch a film of people being tortured and killed. We would rightly regard that as wholly unacceptable. We would not ask them to make clay models of an assassination for instance, or of slaughtered soldiers in history lessons.
Why do the normal rules of decency and protection of precious growing minds go out of the window when it is in a religious context?

Mollygo Fri 24-Mar-23 22:19:40

Matthew 27: 57 . . .
On the evening of Jesus' death, a rich man from Arimathea arrived. His name was Joseph, and he was a disciple of Jesus. Joseph went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. He took the body, wrapped it in a new linen sheet and placed it in his own tomb, which he had just recently dug out of solid rock.
Presumably that’s why she’s doing it. They’ll move on to the amazement and the distress when the women find the stone rolled away and the time empty.
I personally wouldn’t have asked a child to do that, but on the other hand I did ask children to make models so they could demonstrate (pretend) preparing a body for mummification during work on the Ancient Egyptians.

Oreo Fri 24-Mar-23 22:30:08

Religion doesn’t force anything onto anyone.If you choose to believe and belong to your local church or mosque or whatever then you naturally want your children to be brought up in that faith.When older they can choose for themselves.
It does seem odd if the teacher has asked them to make a clay body but maybe after reading to them about it and making an Easter garden, the child just wants to include it?

Joseanne Fri 24-Mar-23 22:33:08

Children usually like blood, guts, gore and dead bodies. Horrible Histories is full of them. I don't think it is particularly grim or odd.
I'm a Christian but personally I am not keen on the hell, fire and damnation teachings in the school environment. Anything else pretty much is fine.

Callistemon21 Fri 24-Mar-23 22:57:28

teach them about what are seen as Christian values, but do not fill their heads with this grim tale

It's not a grim tale, it is the main Christian festival of the year and is (or should be) a joyous festival when Jesus arises from the dead.

I will agree with Joseanne that children do love a bit of blood and gore. It probably wouldn't faze her in the slightest to make a body out of clay unless the adults around her express horror.

Grandma70s Fri 24-Mar-23 23:33:57

I was and am very upset by real cruelty, but I was never worried by the story of the crucifixion. It wasn’t remotely real to to me, just one of those strange historical things you learnt at school, to be forgotten after scripture lessons and hymns in assembly were over. I liked singing hymns, however miserable.

Wyllow3 Fri 24-Mar-23 23:36:36

It did occur that as posted above, it was a kids idea. Then, knowing it mightn't go down well with grandparent, say it was asked for.

I wouldn't think it appropriate for a teacher to suggest it tho.

Some families are open about the facts of death - others try to hide its realities.

Luckygirl3 Sat 25-Mar-23 07:14:28

Oreo ... this IS forced on these children. They have no choice about their village school ... the state funds this CofE school .... this is their local school and is in a tiny village in the middle of the country. This is their school. They cannot practically choose another. This is foisted on them.
This is a "grim tale" .... I have just sung the St John Passion and it is grim .... bloody grim. Saying to children that Christians believe that Jesus came back from the dead is fine ... it is part of learning about world religions ... but giving them the task of making a dead body is not appropriate for little ones.
We are "open about the facts of death." These children were actively involved in every step on the way to my OH's death ... nothing was hidden from them ... they helped during his last weeks.
My objections are: that their local school has a religious bias that the parents have no say in; and that a teacher should regard it as appropriate to ask small children to make dead body.
The GD involved clearly does mind about this as she has made it clear that she wants no more of it when she eventually moves to secondary school. This came spontaneously from her.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 25-Mar-23 07:26:54

Proselytising any religion is unacceptable, particularly schools funded by the state.

No one deity faith can possibly be seen as “the true faith” and it is quite wrong to suggest that it is.

Juliet27 Sat 25-Mar-23 07:27:00

Joseph went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus
I know I should take it seriously but I couldn’t help thinking that I went to Pilates hoping for the body of Jane Fonda.

Joseanne Sat 25-Mar-23 07:58:42

I take it seriously, but I can lighten up about it too!
I'd be pleased the child was showing her flair and creativity in wanting to work with the medium of clay. A corpse is a particularly good example of how you can indent the clay to produce surface textures. KS1 and KS2 are all about experimentation with different media; the godly bit is probably just a convenient topic and a good opportunity to explore this.
Maybe the child will become a sculptor in later life à la Michelangelo.

Baggs Sat 25-Mar-23 08:07:06

I sympathise, lucky, but having been brought up on gruesome stations of the corss and stories of the lives of martyrs from about the age of nine (from confirmation, which of course confirmed nothing as my later atheism attests), I think kids can handle this stuff.

I find some of the children's films that my grandkids watch utterly terrifying but they seem to be able to go into "unreal" (story) mode and cope fine.

Baggs Sat 25-Mar-23 08:10:02

Also, with so much ridiculous wokery (e.g. trigger warnings on classic literature) in universities at the moment, maybe a bit of reality (and crucifixion was reality in Jesus's time) doesn't go amiss.

Mind you, the resurrection and reality is another issue 😅

Fleurpepper Sat 25-Mar-23 08:15:46

Oreo

Religion doesn’t force anything onto anyone.If you choose to believe and belong to your local church or mosque or whatever then you naturally want your children to be brought up in that faith.When older they can choose for themselves.
It does seem odd if the teacher has asked them to make a clay body but maybe after reading to them about it and making an Easter garden, the child just wants to include it?

Religious schools should be for those who choose them, not imposed on local people. I sent my children to the local school, in our village, where they could walk with their friends, and be with their neighbours. Only to realise quite soon that the Vicar had regular input into classes, and yes, as such, his teachings were forced onto the children, irrespective of their parents' faith or none.

It was quite shocking in one instance, when our child came home in tears, and had nightmares for quite a long time, because of a comment made by said Vicar, as she was not baptised. He told her 'your parents wouldn't be so cruel to not baptise you, as it would mean you don't belong to the family of God and couldn't go to Heaven if you died'.

State schools, funded by the State, should be secular.

I personally feel that religious schools should not exist- but if they do, then it should be entirely the parents choice and totally separate.

Blondiescot Sat 25-Mar-23 08:25:41

I totally agree with that, Fleurpepper. I have always said that state-funded schools should be secular and if religious schools have to exist, then they should be privately funded.

Joseanne Sat 25-Mar-23 08:33:55

I'm not entering the state-funded schools religious argument, but I am glad independent schools have chaplains who go way beyond just teaching the scriptures. The have a very diverse pastoral rôle and respect all faiths. Never witnessed any indoctrination like the above, though there are no doubt a few fanatics about.

Fleurpepper Sat 25-Mar-23 08:38:46

Chaplains do not need to be religious either. Our local hospital has Chaplains of several faiths and secular too. But we are not talking about Independent schools- but local village or town area schools.

eazybee Sat 25-Mar-23 08:44:35

Of course there was a dead body in the tomb:
"And Joseph (of Arimathea) took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud and laid it in his own new tomb;"(Matthew 28 v.59.)
The tomb was empty on Easter Sunday.

Whether you believe in the Resurrection or not it is good that these children are being taught the story of Holy Week; they may choose to reject it, but at least they know the events.
And what on earth do you think is taught in that most popular of Primary School topics, The Egyptians, full of details about the preparation of dead bodies for mummification?

Joseanne Sat 25-Mar-23 08:46:12

Does it matter what we are talking here within reason? Comparisons are allowed.

Joseanne Sat 25-Mar-23 08:46:39

Joseanne

Does it matter what we are talking here within reason? Comparisons are allowed.

To Fleurpepper

Mollygo Sat 25-Mar-23 08:51:44

Fleurpepper
I personally feel that religious schools should not exist- but if they do, then it should be entirely the parents choice and totally separate.
I agree with that, though I chose a religious primary for my children and they chose a religious high school, both for themselves and their children. They learnt about different religious beliefs and practices as well as Christianity.
If you live in an area where a Church school is the only primary school available, unless you want to drive your children to the nearest state school, parents should be reminded of their right to withdraw children from RE.