Canon Andrew Hindley

I am sure men who are sexually attracted to children often seek
employment or volunteering in work which gives them access to children, I do not believe teenagers choose a career which
involves much study because they are sexually attracted to
children.

I agree the good people in the church outnumber the bad
There is also ample evidence that men who are sexually attracted to children often seek employment or volunteering in work that gives them access to children
The extent of child sexual abuse is horrific.

In the Churches there are liars , thieves, adulterers, abusers, law breakers, far outnumbered by what is good in man

I attempt to be open minded, knowing that Priests are just mere mortals - like all of us. I know there are abusers in the Priesthood, as I can read. I believe this Pope is diligently attempting to enforce zero tolerance.

BlueBell I do not try to remove blame from anything to do
with the Church. I do not believe abuse is rife in the Church as
this thread is claiming. I do not believe teenagers enter the ministry because they have a desire to abuse, you may do.

I am posting my opinion as others are posting theirs

BlueBelle 👍🏻

Anniebach I like you but sometimes I don’t understand your desperation to remove all possibility of blame from anything connected to the church or the royal family
The church is the perfect place to have the adoration, the ‘being looked up to’ and the blanket of righteousness to cover up not only sexual abuse but abuse of power too
I don’t think anyone is suggesting at 18 a boy wakes up one day and says I m going to be a priest because I ll be able to sexualise children but he will unconsciously be attracted to any walk of life that would give him opportunities it may almost be an inbuilt path without great thought, just like a child who loves Lego or meccano could be transported into the construction industry or a little girl who is a looker afterer may end up a doctor or nurse They are pathways
Yes abuse goes on in some church settings regardless of which type of religion I believe it goes on in some schools, youth clubs, pop venues and it goes on in many homes

Woman can and do abuse but in very small numbers it’s quite rare
Yes abusers are very plausible chocolatelover I know a man who was a great ‘player away from home’ very handy with his fists towards women and quite dishonest but ‘found’ the church became a preacher and was absolutely adored by all the older ladies in the church they knew nothing of his background but they hung on his every word and thought he was the bees knees He could have told them to rob a bank and they probably would have

Caleo, like you, I sigh a little when I see folk quoting chunks of the OT. Jesus said very clearly that he was creating a new covenant.
However, what I did want to add to the debate is my understanding of how plausible some abusers can be.
The relative to whom I referred earlier in the thread, involved in the prosecution of a serial- offender ex clergyman said that he was utterly charming. He was found guilty of abusing boys and sentenced to ( another) term of imprisonment.

Scripture is an authority for some people, which is a shame, because Jesus reformed Scripture so as to place the individual as the ultimate value. Please see the parable of The Good Samaritan.

Cadeby

I heard a snippet of this person speaking ( on the Radio 4 programme). The tone, the authority, the arrogance and superiority rang through. People are taken in by this sort of stuff.

Oh they so are. And I would say that the situations where that happens is getting worse.

I dont know exactly why.
People bow and kow tow to all sorts of people in authority.

I dont agree with breaking the law.
But I do wish so many more people would use a lot more discernment.

For that reason I would caution against someone abused going to the CofE for help.

Many of the dioceses have anti bullying policies, though not all - and those that do have them still bullying in the ranks, or staff and congregations.

Very often it's the church wardens that are bullies and even pychopaths. Quite often the Priest in Charge knows the wardens are toxic, but are scared of their own job security, so feels unable to challenge their behaviour towards the vulnerable.

It's a weird question to ask if someone felt inferior.

Why Annie asked that just because wrong doings in the CofE were flagged up, I cannot fathom

I have been involved with Safeguarding all my working life, so I am happy to champion the rights of the abused.

I find it very sad when those in power pick on those who they percieve to be powerless "because they can", meaning that in many cases the already abused are abused again and again but their actions are bourne of evil which does not belong in any church.

Anniebach

Did you feel inferior?

Not really, I was in the car on my way to a class. I foudn it an interesting and rather chilling listen.

The clip featured him speaking in that rather odd " Church Voice". I can't recall what he was talking about.
Various people then contributed , still scared to come forward. He must have exerted great power.

Anniebach

Did you feel inferior?

Who would you be referring to Annie?

If it's me, then no, of course not. How could I possibly feel inferior to something I consider wrong?

Did you feel inferior?

I heard a snippet of this person speaking ( on the Radio 4 programme). The tone, the authority, the arrogance and superiority rang through. People are taken in by this sort of stuff.

Iam64

I was brought up in the CofE and it’s parables, psalms and good use of language alongside the expectation that we are all responsible for caring for others, especially those less fortunate hasn’t left me.
My faith about the protection of children is in adequate safeguarding. Anyone who has worked in safeguarding, especially police, social workers, paediatricians, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists etc will have been involved with adults and children who were sexually abused by those whose duty was to protect them. It could be a family member, a priest, teacher, doctor, police officer, social worker, imam, - it could be anybody. But, people who were abused in Churches, or in other places by so called men of god, carry particular pain, often shrouded in shame

I was often in the C of E as a child .

Church abuse, not just CofE happens. I would have thought that a smaller church would be less safe that a large organisation, but I definitely think I was wrong in thinking that.

Yes it's true that people who were abused in churches or by "so called men of God" carry particular pain.

Add to that the pain of not being believed because the man (or person) is "of God".

Then the lies told by the "person of God" to cover up, which people believe because of their "importance". Then the person abused has the hatred of others to deal with on top of the fact that they were abused.

Then the low self esteem and alienation that makes them a target to be more likely to be re abused or bullies

I have worked with people of all ages who have been abused and do take Safeguarding very seriously, which is why I am raising awareness.

Put simply, anyone who has any kind of abuse in their background would be better off not attending any kind of organisation who would not listen, support or validate their feelings in the case of abuse.

I made a mistake: I meant to say I also think if those in authority did not have so much power and know that it is easy to make a complaint or be heard, they would be a lot less likely to bully or abuse in the first place.

Anniebach

The one place a child should be safe and should feel safe is in
the home

Definitely at home, yes.

But the discussion is about church, so that's why I only said church.

fancythat

www.leics.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/rape-sexual-assault-investigation/

I think I have now gone full circle.
I think I am back to my point of, the police couldnt convict him.

I understand that the police couldn't convict. This often happens when the CPS can't find enough evidence, but my issue isn't with the (secular) police, but the church, who have their own discipline in the church of England, called the Clergy Discipline Measure. I don't think it adequate that the CDM will only treat a complaint seriously only if a person meets the four criteria that I mentioned earlier.

People could feel safe in a CofE church if they knew they would be listened to and heard, so that if there was the merest hint of bullying or abuse, it would be stamped on.

I also think if those in authority did not have so much power and know that it's not easy to make a complaint or be heard, they would be a lot less likely to bully or abuse in the first place.

Bullying is from the top down in the CofE. I read a report about how bad it is working for them and while I'm truly sorry for them having such a toxic work environment, I don't wish to be a recipient of their culture, nor do I think it should be left unsaid that anyone who is abused or bullied cannot complain and be heard unless they meet that narrow window of "suitableness"

The one place a child should be safe and should feel safe is in
the home

I agree with both points.

It's a fact that those who have a history of being abused in childhood are far more likely to continue being victimized as adults. Not all abuse is sexual.

My point is, the one place anyone should feel safe is a church.

www.leics.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/rape-sexual-assault-investigation/

I think I have now gone full circle.
I think I am back to my point of, the police couldnt convict him.

I know the JW's also need a witness (maybe other religions too?) But nothing would happen if a witness was there, that's the whole reason why things are often said quietly so no one else can hear, or done sneakily so no one else could see...

It's always the bad behaviour of some who ruin it for the others. I'm sure there are some good ones, but we who know the truth have to warn against the baddies and be discerning of character.

I am highlighting this out of a duty to speak the truth plainly for all to know, we will not go backwards, so the C of E needs to move forwards if it wants to be relevant.