Repeal of fox hunting

The argument that the pro-hunt people use is that foxes are predators that kill livestock and their numbers must be kept down.

In the Independent in June was this report:

"..............Undercover filming has revealed 16 foxes being kept in captivity in order to be hunted illegally, according to the League Against Cruel Sports.

"The animal charity's investigation found 16 fox cubs, some as young as three months, being held in a dark shed near Malton in North Yorkshire.

"The League found that the foxes were being fed dead chickens and provided with dirty water in bowls. The charity claims that they were forcibly removed from their original habitat because of the lack of vixens and adult foxes.

"On 31 May, North Yorkshire Police raided the barns, removed the foxes and arrested the employee seen feeding the foxes. 15 of the foxes are being kept in a secret location, while one died shortly after being rescued.

" 'This blows apart the argument that hunting is 'wildlife management','said Dr Toni Shephard, the head of policy and research for the animal charity. "

If foxes are "vermin" because they kill wantonly, then so are domestic cats. These animals are not "wicked" or "vicious" - it is their instinct to hunt and kill in order to stay alive.

www.viva.org.uk/huntingban

The Hunting Act 2004[1]
Parliament of the United Kingdom
Long title An Act to make provision about hunting wild mammals with dogs; to prohibit hare coursing; and for connected purposes.
Citation 2004 c 37
Territorial extent England and Wales[2]
Dates
Royal Assent 18 November 2004
Commencement 18 February 2005[3]
Text of statute as originally enacted
Revised text of statute as amended

The Hunting Act 2004 (c 37) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which bans the hunting of wild mammals (notably foxes, deer, hares and mink) with dogs in England and Wales; the Act does not cover the use of dogs in the process of flushing out an unidentified wild mammal,[4] nor does it affect drag hunting, where hounds are trained to follow an artificial scent.[5]

The Act came into force on 18 February 2005. The pursuit of foxes with hounds, other than to flush out to be shot, was banned in Scotland two years earlier by the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002. Such hunting remains legal in Northern Ireland.
This would be very difficult to police.
On Wednesday, 15th July 2015, the current Conservative Government are proposing Amendments to the Act, after realising they had only a slender chance of Repealing it. The Amendments will be voted upon by a Free Vote, after just one hour's Debate in the House of Commons. One of the key Amendments is the flushing out of foxes, in order for them to be shot to death. Whilst this might sometimes stop the foxes suffering from being ripped apart by hounds, it is not reasonable that the hounds would not sometimes attack the foxes, especially having previously been trained to do so. Also, more importantly, the majority of English and Welsh MPs have previously decided that "such activity does result in unnecessary suffering."
So that's what is going on. I'm not much the wiser.

Liz46, which measures have your neighbours taken to protect their chickens? We lost our pet chickens to a vixen one Spring (she had young to feed- and we mothers and grand-mothers know we would do almost anything to feed our loved ones) - but although we cried buckets as our hens were true pets with names and marked personalities- we never blamed the vixen, only ourselves for poor husbandry and care- as we forgot to close the hen-house one night.

I'm not sure G1 is still around. I hope she reconsiders and stays on GN

Sorry grannyonce I meant to say I know you said you are against repealing the ban, not against the ban. I still don't follow the argument for judging animals for doing what animals do.

grannyonce, you were not attacked, I was discussing the topic with you, I understood you are against it

Cats kill without eating their prey, too, and injure without killing. My neighbour has a wildllife pond which was full of frogs of all sizes. A new cat in the neighbourhood has started catching and maiming them, and leaving them lying around undead but past recovery. It is the nature of the beast. We keep cats and love them, we hate foxes and kill them.

G1 foxes do what foxes do. Saying that they are vicious killers puts a value judgement on their nature, which doesn't make sense.

AB - I was asking a question that is all - is it widely ignored? - in my neck of the woods it is not ignored but I don't know about Wales or Scotland.
why am I being attacked
I said I supported the ban - [sigh]

I did not say I was against the ban - if you read my post.
as a vegetarian - I hope very few if any animals are killed for me.
I know animals kill other animals but the fox is a particularly vicious predator - sometimes killing but not eating what it has killed. So to me that makes them vermin.

grannyonce, if the ban was effective why do hunts still have large packs of hounds ten years after the flushing out of the fox with two hounds became law. There is no such thing as the old way of hunting , nothing has changed . The police ignore reports of hunts because of position of some taking part .

Shall we kill cats because they prey on birds

Are you saying that because foxes kill other animals that makes them somehow bad grannyonce? I don't understand that logic. I know you said you are against the ban but I still don't understand why you are expressing some sort of moral disapproval of foxes. Many animals kill other animals. No other species kills so many or so often for no good reason as the human species.

How can the hunters argue that the fox needs to be culled when foxes are bred especially for the hunt.

AB are you sure it is so widely ignored - your description was the 'old way' of hunting.
I grew up on a farm and believe me the hunt did not respect hedges, crops in the fields or tracks. My father as a farmer in the 50s and 60s would always try and send the hounds in the wrong direction if he could. At that time it was not possible to stop the hunt as they had 'the right' to trespass.

FYI - I have seen what foxes can do to other animals who also had a right to live. So if you read my post you will see I support the ban (I would also favour a ban on rearing grouse and other game birds for sport - but that is another topic on which I am sure there are differing opinions).

The ban is ignored, hunts are still riding to hounds and foxes being torn to bits, no animal should be hunted by a pack of baying hounds and and horses with riders plus the racket of the hunting horn. The fox is so pumped with adrenaline it becomes an exhausted, quivering heap . And cubbing is too horrific to speak of , I have seen vixens trying to defend their cubs and watched the excitement on the faces of the hunters , the cheering and horn blowing when a child is daubed in blood . The hounds are killed by the age of approx seven years , they cannot be housed as pets. Anyone who believes a pack of hounds can hunt to the kill then obey commands to stand back for the fox to be shot needs to follow a hunt . I was a hunt sabatour for years , the scream of the fox haunts you, the excitement on the faces of the huntsmen and followers sickens you. Fox hunting does not decrease the fox population , it's a sport no different to cock or dog fighting , purely for the pleasure of man

I was against the hunting ban to begin with because of the possible impact on rural economy. I don't go along with the image of arrogant toffs tearing across farmers' fields. Hunting was far more planned and organised than that and hunts were invited to ride across farms where headlands, woodland and farm tracks were carefully managed to accommodate them.

We've moved on from those days though and I don't think it would be wise of any government to attempt to turn back the clock. Easy for me to say though because we don't live in a livestock farming area.

As granjura says the real problem with foxes is in towns and cities thanks to misguided so called animal lovers feeding them.

exactly- I really do resent the way fox hunters talk about antis as 'townies who do not understand'! Many of us are country born and bread and know quite a lot about foxes, their behaviour and also about husbandry.

Foxes do an excellent job of cleaning up the countryside of all sort of vermin and the huge number of damaging rabbits. The % loss of lambs is more or less the same in areas where foxes are non existent- and most losses are due to poor husbandry and the encouragement of multiple births, where the run of the litter is weaker and remains unprotected. That is not to say foxes do not take young lambs, even healthy ones on rare occasions- but the great majority of lambs taken are the weak, dead or dying. Most deaths are due to extreme weather conditions.

The real problems with foxes are in town- and the culprits are HUMAN - lots of food waste and litter, and also those that feed foxes. Feedng foxes in town encourages larger litters too. Research by Bristol university shows clearly that foxes are very good at controlling their own numbers- if food is plentifull, all vixens will breed and have large litters. When food is scarce, only the top vixens will breed and have 1 or 2 cubs.

Yes, and they can still dress up and ride the horses across the country in drag hunting. But then there would be no 'kill' so that would take half their pleasure away or they wouldn't be trying to overturn the ban

I don't see foxes as cuddly fluffy animals but as animals with a right to live. Please don't let anyone pretend fox hunting is a way of controlling the fox population. It's what it has always been - an excuse for people to dress up and ride their horses across country in an exciting chase. Foxes are still being bred and protected for that very purpose, despite the ban. I agree with whitewave that there is something creepy about anyone who can watch a live animal being torn apart for entertainment.

did we have a referendum on fox-hunting with dogs ?
who says 80% are in favour of a ban ?
personally as a rural dweller I dislike the nouveau riche with their horses and arrogant attitude (they can go where they like over the farmers field) who are today's hunt supporters (I doubt they catch many foxes anyway)
but foxes are vicious predators who kill lambs, cats as well as chickens. If any of you have ever seen the aftermath of a fox attack (animals killed but not eaten - it is just carnage) you will not view them as cuddly fluffy animals.
For me the ban should stay as it is without amendment even if Scotland have a differant rule.

Tracey Crouch Tory sports minister is leading Tory colleagues to vote against the amendment . S he along with other Tories recognises that public opinion is vastly against it. "People have moved on from this "
With luck then and a fair wind this will not get through.

Perhaps you should have made it clearer in your OP what the matter under discussion was? It's not only me who is confused.

OK ana as you wish.