Possible gulf-stream collapse

Whitewavemark2

The big issue for the U.K. when the Gulf Stream does collapse will be the ability to grow as much of our own food as we do now, because the growth season will be drastically reduced.

All these climate change predictions are just speculation, we just don’t know whether it is going to get warmer, or if the Gulf Stream changes it will get colder.

We all need to consume a lot less - but we aren’t, we just believe the carbon offsetting claims and carry on as before, eventually we will change our ways, what will happen to the global economy then?.

If the government approves the new oil field in the a North Sea, it will do so in the full knowledge of what these enormous amount of extra hydrocarbons will do to the world.

Culpable?

Yes.

One of the successes of lockdown has been the reduction in co2 emissions as a result of people working from home.

It was certainly noticeable during the initial lockdown. Working from home seems to be the way to go where possible.

Message from the government?

Get back to the office.

What fools they are.

The big issue for the U.K. when the Gulf Stream does collapse will be the ability to grow as much of our own food as we do now, because the growth season will be drastically reduced.

What it also means is mass migration from the areas of the world that are becoming uninhabitable.

What does that suggest given the attitude to immigrants? Look at our current Home Secretary who seems to have an unhealthy and cruel obsession with immigrants.

My question is, what are you going to do about the animals that are not killed for meat, they will still reproduce, give off methane gas, are we to euthanise them all.

I get asked this question a lot (I'm a vegetarian). The numbers of meat and dairy animals we have at the moment is not natural; I don't expect everyone will go veggie overnight so we scale back the industrial farming and get to a position of equilibrium between the animals and the rest of the environment. Which means a change in the attitude to farming and support from governments to help people affected by it.

And if we have to euthanise some, so be it. Vegetarianism isn't a sentimental choice, its a pragmatic one.

DD and I were just discussing the report.

The planet, of course, will be fine. Its been warmer, its been colder. What will happen is that the lives of human beings will be changed forever. Island nations gone, under the sea. Equatorial areas uninhabitable. Our current lifestyle unsustainable - food shortages, flooding, wildfires.

We've had 50 years to think about it so any of the world's politicians that try to use the excuse that its too hard and the economy won't stand it will get no sympathy. They're meant to be leaders, well they better get on and lead.

There will be major resistance at the suggestion that consumption of hydrocarbon related production, the economy is entirely wrapped in it.

OK.

Yes absolutely Is is a social construct, but between recognising there is the most devastating crises the planet has ever faced, accepting that it is as a result of human activity, agreeing the worse culprit - hydrocarbons- agreeing and actively on cutting back or eliminating - constructing the technology. Then looking at the economy and how it will work.

The steps are the biggest challenge we have ever faced

GagaJo

I find this terrifying.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/05/climate-crisis-scientists-spot-warning-signs-of-gulf-stream-collapse

I find it terrifying too. We should all do what we can to address it but unless corporations and governments make huge changes, we're a' boogered.

Caleo

Vegansrock wrote:

"Animal agriculture is by far the biggest contributor to planet destruction and no one seems to mention that because it will mean changing personal habits which no one wants to do. "

More than popular veganism, what will change consumption of animal muscle tissue is the profit focus of agri-businesses. Once that lab grown muscle tissue is available and properly promoted that will be a big advance for the ecology.

Already oat 'milk' has been a phenomenal success!

Oaty milk, in fact any other of the plant based juices, not milk, are disgusting. I do what I can to help reduce my carbon footprint. My question is, what are you going to do about the animals that are not killed for meat, they will still reproduce, give off methane gas, are we to euthanise them all.

Economics is a human construct. We can do what we want, we all have to agree then get on with it.

As famous Star Trek philosopher Scotty said, ye cannae change the laws of physics.

What I am concerned about is that the economic system that we are locked into demands growth year on year.

This is currently largely based on hydrocarbon use, but has to be drastically reduced in order to save the planet.

How can this happen without consumption being reduced and therefore growth?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58130705

Probably nothing we can do about it. eh? Just one of those things. Happens all the time.

As a scientist, you will well be aware that opinion doesn't come into it when scientific evidence has shown that climate change is anthropogenic.

We are responsible for climate change.

Here's those nice chaps at NASA. climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Alegrias1

My background is in the physics of renewable energy sources and their impact on the environment.

We are responsible for climate change.

C'est tout.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Caleo do you seriously think that people will happily eat lab grown muscle tissue? I don’t feed my family any processed food and the very idea of artificially manufactured meat substitute turns my stomach.

My background is in the physics of renewable energy sources and their impact on the environment.

We are responsible for climate change.

C'est tout.

I say the climate has always changed Alegrias1 because it has, sometimes slowly and sometimes dramatically quickly.
My background is in geology and archaeology so my opinions are based on my understanding of the changes, through geologic time and then once mankind emerged onto the scene.

Referring to pollution, and not climate change, I wholeheartedly believe each and every one of us should be trying to minimise our impact, reducing waste and avoiding excessive consumption. Those who can have more impact e.g. business owners, politicians, governments need to make changes to redress the harm we have done.

Realistically the dramatic ‘solutions’ being planned for the future, e.g. all cars being electric and phasing out of gas boilers etc. in this country (I think of Scotland but it applies to the U.K. too) will affect each and every one of us financially in a dramatic fashion but while the major polluters continue to use fossil fuels and power ahead economically our sacrifices will be useless. We need to get our heads round quite how small and unimportant our country is in this world. We invented the railway. How long will it take to get a small high speed railway line between London and Birmingham and at what cost? Meanwhile China has almost 38,000 km of high speed railway and each and every seat can be reserved.

In regard to mitigations, if I am unconvinced that we are responsible for climate change surely it is unreasonable for me to be asked to provide a solution to an issue I don’t believe in. Working together with other countries to reduce pollution is desirable but do delegates need to jet in from around the world to do so? Does our climate tsar need to jet to 30 countries to arrange it?

Vegansrock wrote:

"Animal agriculture is by far the biggest contributor to planet destruction and no one seems to mention that because it will mean changing personal habits which no one wants to do. "

More than popular veganism, what will change consumption of animal muscle tissue is the profit focus of agri-businesses. Once that lab grown muscle tissue is available and properly promoted that will be a big advance for the ecology.

Already oat 'milk' has been a phenomenal success!

Everything we buy is Green or carbon neutral, I simply dont believe it, it’s just PR hype meant to make us believe we are saving the planet by carbon offsetting.

www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/golden-age-of-greenwash/

Thank you for the detailed response to my question Esspee.

I do admit though to being a bit confused; at the end you say that there’s no point in doing anything because major polluters like the USA and China carry on regardless, but at the start you say you don’t believe we’re changing the climate anyway. So either we are or we aren’t. We are, of course.

There really is no serious scientific doubt over the fact that climate change is manmade. I can only surmise that people keep saying things like “the climate has always changed, it’s not us” because the implications of owning up that it is, actually, us, are just too scary. So heads get buried in the sand.

Previous climate changes happened over millenia, the latest has happened over 50 years. It’s definitely us. One thing I agree with you about, the planet will be fine, its human beings who will suffer. But I’m sure the people who have been flooded out in Germany, and those who have lost their homes in wildfires in Greece will be placated to know that the planet will be fine, don’t worry. Much like the island countries that are disappearing under rising levels of the sea and the countries suffering from drought.

I agree with vegansrock that recycling a few yogurt pots is not doing all we can. I also agree with WWM2's list of things we can do that go a bit further.

So I don’t actually think you have answered my question about mitigations Esspee, because you are basically telling us you buy local and its all those other people who caused the problem and you just can’t do anything, sorry. Which is essentially what the UK are doing if they don’t try to work with the rest of the world to fix this properly.

Kuwait has the biggest tyre dump in the world.

It is now on fire.

Being released into the atmosphere is now, carbon monoxide, cyanide, sulphur dioxide and much more.

It will affect us all.

Alegrias1

I meant mitigations for the change in climate Esspee, and I just wondered, this being a discussion forum and all. Its just that you seem intent on letting us know that its not the UK's fault and anything we do will be negligible because China/US/whatever are polluting much more than we are. And I still haven't forgotten that you are not entirely convinced its not anthropogenic

I am unconvinced we can do anything meaningful to alter the climate Alegrias1. From the beginning, 4.5 billion years ago our planet’s climate has continually been changing. In the U.K. we have desert sandstone, deep sea sediments, coal from tropical forests, granite from deep within the crust and basalt lava flows from many active volcanoes plus the deposits left behind by the glaciers which covered the land until relatively recently (in geological time). The tiny blink of an eye that mankind has existed we have certainly trashed our planet but it is superficial. Our Earth will continue to thrive and continue to change. Mankind may be wiped out if these changes do not suit the very narrow range of conditions in which we can exist.

Whilst I don’t believe we can change the climate at this time everyone of us has an impact on our trashing of our planet. We have abused our home, originally through ignorance. When the industrial revolution started we didn’t know that the processes would poison the land and the air we have to breathe nor that we would cause species extinction at an alarming rate. In the scramble for wealth the exploitation of the workers was ignored as the rich got richer, the spoil heaps grew and the polluted air caused sickness and covered our land in a layer of grime.
Nowadays in this country the average person has a quality of life never dreamt of in the past. Child poverty is not having an iPad or mobile phone. Young people want a detached 4 bedroom house with at least an en-suite, family bathroom and a downstairs toilet. The first five years of my life we had a shared outside lavatory and the bath was brought out on a Friday and placed in front of the kitchen fire.
As Katie59 said consumption is our problem. My generation the mother stayed home and parented. Now they “have to” go out to work because they won’t accept having to live on one salary. Their “needs” (actually wants), are so much greater. It can’t continue.
Every individual has a responsibility to minimise their impact but frankly reducing our consumption, reusing instead of trashing stuff and recycling is not going to make a meaningful dent in the problem. Yes, we will try to use less water, insulate our homes, buy local etc. but anyone who thinks doing so will reverse changes to our climate is deluded in my opinion while major polluters such as the USA and China carry on regardless.

Esspee

Not sure what you want me to give solutions for Alegrias1 CO2 production? the gulf stream possible reversal? overconsumption of resources? or the overdue polar reversal which will have very severe repercussions in the short term.
I shall leave the solutions to better minds than mine while doing what I can to minimise my personal impact and reminding politicians that they have a duty to make this world a better place.

It is the UKs fault along with most other western nations because we have exported manufacturing to China, without that the emission of China would be way down.

It’s our consumption that is the problem