That burkini!

Well, we shall see what we shall see.

I am way beyond M&S and know full well that business is business and if you can make money then that is what you do. As I said a good business person will keep their eyes open for opportunities and make hay while the sun shines. Equally public opinion can also close doors therefore clearly that is also something which they will watch.

Anybody who is watching the unfolding of events around the world does not need a vivid imagination, it is all 'hidden' in clear sight.

As for there being different degrees of religiosity I had this graphically explained to me a long time ago.
"First of all 'they' will target the Saturday people, then they will target the Sunday people, then they will go for the unbelievers before going for those they see as liberal amongst 'their own'."
We are well down the road in this respect and it will be interesting to see if the man/woman in the street will acknowledge what is happening before politicians manage to spill the beans/acknowledge the truth.
At the moment the politicians are just running scared of 'frightening the horses' and this is understandable when people are keeping their eyes tightly shut.

PC will have to end soon!

Good Heavens Spangles. You have a vivid imagination. Have you been reading too much dystopian fiction?

Is this creeping anti-muslimism? Please no.

Well said Lilyflower. I can't help but feel that this is the thin edge of the wedge and it will only be a matter of time before ALL women,regardless of religious beliefs,will be expected to cover up or be thought of as an immoral hussy.

Surely if Muslim women want burkinis they can buy online or in Muslim shops, M&S would be better employed producing clothes that I actually want to wear

Well, that's told M &S hasn't it?
I am gobsmacked at the attitude that any religious group should be told where they "may" or " may not" shop. On another thread there is much being made about anti-Semitism. How would you feel about substituting the word "Jewish" or "Asian" or even "black" for Muslim?

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything so this strikes me as a ridiculous overreaction to a bit of canny marketing!

I too agree absolutely with Lilyflower. There is a creeping normalisation of Muslim culture and values that are at odds with our culture and values and in some parts of the country attempts by Muslims to impose their values on us. Surely if Muslim women want burkinis they can buy online or in Muslim shops, M&S would be better employed producing clothes that I actually want to wear. A couple of times I have seen a completely covered Muslim lady at the bus stop in the morning eating a sandwich - for which she had to lift up her veil to get it in her mouth, seemed to defeat the object. We are an open society. I have no problem with headscarves, some of them look very attractive but object to faces being covered. It's not required in the Koran (depends on the version, I think). I do think, though, that many English girls could be a bit more modest in their dress.

I am not a Muslim but I do have many friends around the world who are and I have intergrated into communities and been accepted for who I am. it is not religion that is dictating who should wear what but the leaders in a few very strict countries. The countries I have stayed in I have seen young girls dressed in jeans and a long sleeved tops With a head covering, riding motorbikes and chatting up boys! I wear a head covering, a sun hat! We hear talk of Muslim culture taking over in our country but what about westernisation in Muslim countries? Bikinis on sale in Malasia, a strong Muslim country etc. What gives us the right to say our way is best in dress and customs. We should all respect other people's values and dress code, even some other the sights we see amongst our own culture leave a lot to be desired.

I think it is missing the point to complain that M&S is encouraging the suppression of women by selling these garments.
It's like saying they are encouraging excessive alcohol consumption by selling fine wines.
No one has to buy a burkini and no one has to wear one.
Everyone seems to be assuming that Muslim women are forced to wear a headscarf, whereas my understanding is that the majority of them choose to, to demonstrate their adherence to their religion, which, let us not forget, is not that of the terrorists and the extremists.

As for the burkini itself, it strikes me as a very practical garment.
Here in the north-east, a group of nutters people brave the icy waters of the North Sea every day of the year.
If I were tempted to join them, the burkini would be my garment of choice

Ok, they are making money out of it, but there again, they are a business. Nothing wrong with that.

The "simples" () is that many Muslim women want to go swimming but still cover up. M and S are meeting a need in the population.

Alea You have read something into that which was not there. If a company is in business they are in it to make money. Business people keep a very watchful eye on public opinion so that they do not go out of business. That is why some people are good business people and others are not. Simples!

Many people do not see this for what it is - yet. Which is why it will get much worse.

Of course M&S have profitability at the top of their priority list! You make it sound reprehensible synonymous but they are indeed a business and how "public opinion" if such there is, comes into it it beyond me. Nobody is suggesting they are telling Western girls to cover up (but goodness, perhaps somebody should) but presumably market research among the buyers and suppliers of "modest"(I use the term in its technical sense) has led them to believe there will be a market.
I don't see it as you do -*Jane10*, as an insidious spread of Middle Eastern attitudes, just pragmatic marketing. There may even be a burgeoning market among sufferers from Lupus or Photosensitivity among our indigent population.

In my lifetime women have gained the right to show or hide whatever they wish. Let's leave it to them to decide.

Leonora if it were only so simple.

I am old enough to remember 1956, when a French engineer introduced his newly designed Bikini. Talk about shock horror.
The newspapers were full of comments about how this demeaning garment harmed the dignity of women.
At eighteen, I would have been much too modest to show so much flesh; and away my my mother would never have allowed me to go out in public in one.
But now no one, even great Grans, would be shocked.
In my lifetime women have gained the right to show or hide whatever they wish. Let's leave it to them to decide.

Jess yes, M&S are all about the money. They are in business. They ought to be wise to care about public opinion.

If the rest of it is not about religion why are the women wearing these things and why are all these other things happening right round the world?

They will stock them in central London where a huge chunk of their business is wealthy Arab tourists. Nothing to do with religion (the original Marks was after all, a Polish Jew) . Everything about who shops in their most lucrative outlets.

Lilyflower thank you for such an excellent post.

Kas1950 Concerning but not surprising.

We all need to wake up and see what is going on around us and be aware of the stupidity of pc taking precedence over common sense. Whether we like it or not there is a war going on which is rapidly intensifying. It starts with the small things and once these are accepted the agenda moves on. Naturally enough there are always people who are not satisfied with the pace of 'softly, softly' and resort to violence. Once violence is seen to be normal the pace of that escalates so that ordinary people are disabled from going about their normal lives without fear.
Meanwhile the politicians feed the 'sheeple' with bread and circuses and continue to draw their big fat salaries for ..... what?!

Well done Lilyflower I agree with you 100%.

Read the reasons. They've already been posted.

FGS, if a burkini enables a Muslim woman to take advantage of swimming facilities, why should we object?

We saw several young mums wearing burkinis last year while we were on holiday in Jordan. They looked hot (but we all did - it was 35degrees) and far sexier than some of the young women in skimpy bikinis who were all boobs and buttocks. If this form of dress is supposed not to "incite" the lustful urges of men, I'd say they failed. But that was Jordan, an Arab country. This is the UK.
Presumably M&S will only stock these in shops with a large Muslim community, otherwise they are not commercially viable, and they are available easily online. What's the difference between this and large areas of Leicester having Indian shops selling saris? Is it simply because M&S is seen as a British icon?
Having said all that I'm conscious that I sound as if I have mixed feelings about it. I do. On the one hand I detest the idea of women being forced to cover up in response to some male diktat and on the other people should be allowed to wear what they want. On balance I think I'll stick with the "when in Rome" philosophy.

kaz Is anybody friendly with your young Muslim lady? I mean she may have retreated because of fear of reprisal, it may not mean solidarity. But worrying if it is.

Kaz1950 that is slightly worrying.

Apologies Jane10 also meant to post respect to you for your statement about choice

Lily flower is right. I worry for my granddaughters generation. It is creeping in and m&s should be ashamed of themselves. I shop at m&s but wonder if I should think of going elsewhere.