A very English Scandal

I too was totally surprised at Michelle Doltrice
when you haven’t seen someone from about age 25/30 to suddenly 68 you re going to be surprised surely and you wont recognise them, that’s all, nothing wrong with that grumpa, no ones says no she looks bad just naturally very different Some people just look an older version of themselves, some change hugely I have a couple of school friends I hadn’t seen for 60 years one looks exactly the same as she did the other one I can’t see anything of her original features, build, hair at all

I too was surprised to see how Michele Dotrice had aged - she will forever be Frank Spencer's wife -
which is what we all do!
I was thinking that she was the little girl in Mary Poppins, but that was her sister Karen.

I think that Jeremy Thorpe was a victim too.

I will await the brickbats.

No brickbats from me Jalima . Just curious to know in what respect you think Thorpe was a victim?

That's what I wondered too Iam64, the plot to kill was Thorpe's of course, but given different times and different attitudes, and of course, a change in the law, then Thorpe would have been free to have his relationship with Norman. I did admire his second wife, and the lady played by Michelle Dotrice was probably the best thing that ever happened to Norman; she supported him, gave him a home, didn't moralise. All round a great drama with a very well selected cast.

Day6, I plan to watch the Panorama on Thorpe this evening. I didn't know about the police preparing a statement for the shooter. In that case, yes corruption which wasn't the case with C Smith.
One of our (adult) children and partner called yesterday, they asked what we'd been watching in the evening. When I outlined the Thorpe drama, one of them asked who wrote it. To say they were staggered to hear this unfolded in our life time, they were stunned.

I have no doubt that Thorpe was a victim.

I’m still not happy about this sad story being exploited as entertainment. Still uncomfortable. I couldn’t resist watching it for the performances, but I’m glad it’s over.

The Mangold Panorama programme was an excellent finale to the three Thorpe episodes. I enjoyed the interview he did with Norman Scott. Scott seems in a better emotional state than he was as a younger man, I certainly hope so. Being able to laugh at bungled and hopeless attempts to murder you takes some humour. Scott seemed relieved that the story is finally being told and believed.

Grandma70, in what way do you believe Thorpe to have been a victim. Is it because homosexuality was illegal?

I'm sorry I disagree,Thorpe was in no way a victim.He used his power to control people ,arrange a murder and managed to duck out of the consequences.Thats not a victim .Thats a man without morals .He could have admitted his homosexuality or lived as gay BUT he couldn't have done that and enjoyed the lifestyle he had ...and of course that was the key to the whole mess.He wanted to have his cake AND eat it .The true victim was Norman Scott who was gullable and naive and deserved to be treated with respect......

I also don’t see him as a victim yes it was different times and homosexuals were treated badly BUT he was willing to have someone commit murder on his behalf and that’s no victim I agree totally with paddyannes post

They were both victims. I’ve said this earlier in the thread, but they were firstly the victims of an iniquitous law that outlawed homosexualty even among consenting adults. If that law had not existed, and they could just have lived peacefully as gay men, none of this need have happened.

There was a further problem for Thorpe because he was in public life. Unlike Scott, he had to hide the fact that he was gay even after the change in the law (which incidentally still did not give gay men equality with straight men at that time) because of the deep and entrenched prejudice in much of society. I am not sure whether I’m interpreting Paddyann correctly, but you seem to be suggesting Thorpe could have lived as a gay man if he had given up his job. Why on earth should anyone have had to do that?

Thorpe was a victim firstly of the law and then of society’s backward attitudes. As I said before, what a waste of a talented man .

No brickbats from me Jalima . Just curious to know in what respect you think Thorpe was a victim?
A victim of the times I think KatyK - when he had to deny and supposedly try (and failed) to suppress his sexuality. It's shocking to think that it was such a short time ago relatively speaking. I also think that, hearing that he had several extremely short liaisons and that the relationship with Norman Scott lasted for a longer period of time, that he did love him in a way but knew that his career, his life, his marriage would be ruined if it became public.

Sadly all in vain. I was surprised to hear Norman Scott state in the interview the ways in which the conspirators planned to 'do away with him'. The ideas sounded quite ludicrous - drop him from a helicopter into the Everglades, drop him down a tin mine in Cornwall - and these ideas sounded so far-fetched that one is left wondering if, in fact, Thorpe really wanted to kill him or just wanted him to go away and keep quiet and others took the idea and went with it. Bessell was not the most trustworthy character imo.
Without the NI card/number how has Norman managed to work since and how is he maintaining his lifestyle, albeit a simple one? I hope he has been helped, is living peacefully and that this latest tv series and subsequent publicity has not upset his equilibrium.

Well yes I see. It was a terrible time to be gay. They went through a lot.

There is no doubt that it was illegal to be gay when Thorpe first began his liason with Scott. However when the case came to court it was no longer illegal. Thorpe chose not only to lie about his involvement but allowed a man who had been his friend and supporter (even if a bit of a dodgy individual) Bessel to be humiliated in court. If he was a victim he undoubtedly victimised others far more than he was.

Agree trisher and JT and other upper class closet gays stood idly by whilst ordinary men were entrapped and imprisoned. Typical upper class I’m all right Jackerry

Of course he shouldn't have to give up his job ...but if he had he could have lived the life he wanted ,without all the cloak and dagger stuff.I have relatives who are gay and have worked with and for several gay men over the years .One in particular who married and had SIX children .He still had his affairs though I dont think his wife was aware of them and certainly his children didn't know he was gay .Its how it was in the late 60's and early 70's ,we can be happy that no one has to live a lie nowadays

maryeliza54, don’t you think it’s just as wrong to generalise about upper class people as it is to generalise about lower class people? I do.

No because generalisations don’t mean everyone but what’s more likely - the law has always been k8nder to tge upper classes - for one thing they had the money to access it and the connections, if you look at the courts now post legal aid cuts, it’s the less advantaged who are losing out

Was Jeremy Thorpe a victim? I suppose he was a victim of the homosexuality laws of the time.
But he was pretty ruthless and unscrupulous in his treatment of Norman Scott and his underlings who were expected to kill Scott or find a hitman to do it. They were all Thorpe’s victims.
The police cover up was rather glossed over.
An excellent dramatisation of this murky story from the political past even if they did make light of serious issues. Potentially award winning acting from Hugh Grant.

JT had choices - it does rather reduce ones claim to be a victim. Of course the law was wrong.

I’ll never forgive or forget the election where Simon Hughes fought a filthy campaign against Peter Tatchell who was openly gay - especially as SH came out later. That’s hypocrisy of a grand order

Am I missing something?
Norman Scott wanted a National Insurance Number, why he didn't have one, who knows. JT promised to get him one but never did and this fuelled Norman Scott, who in the following programme says he still doesn't have a NIN.

Was it not possible for Norman Scott to go to the local Dept. Health & Social Services Office, or CAB, advise he didn't have a NIN and ask for help/direction to sort a NIN?

Of course all gays were wrongly treated BUT not all gays were plotting to kill their lovers to keep themselves from trouble Thorpe was only a victim of the time as many with differences have been, the mentally ill, those with learning difficulties or disabled or the poor caught stealing a loaf, ethnic minorities in the ‘wrong country’ They were all treated dreadfully compared to today’s standards, they don’t all engage in.murder to save their skins I don’t have an ounce of sympathy for him

He must have had a NI number to have had a NI card - so that all seemed a bit odd.
I can't remember when they stopped using the cards. I don't mean the red and blue cards, I mean the old-fashioned ones which were in use in those days, yellow I think, which were stamped.

Was the NI issue linked to Scott’s name change?

I think his previous employer (at the stables) had the NI card and Norman left in a hurry to go with Jeremy Thorpe.

Please note that I am saying I think