The Brits: Dave.

POGS, have you READ Chaucer? It is full of bad language. Is Chaucer literature? You would probably say not but that hasn't stopped the WHOLE canon of English Lit. studying him for hundreds of years .

GG13, yes, it's awful. Anyone with a heart feels for them. That doesn't make Dave a murderer though.

All the racist apologists are out tonight, I see. Ridiculous, considering that is what this thread is about.

Can’t believe there’s someone on gransnet who loves a 20 year old rapper.

Think it’s a bit sad tbh.

It's the zeitgeist. And I teach 14-18 year olds. Stay current or leave.

Plus, civil rights are always contemporary. Despite the stereotype of us oldies being out of touch and past it.

count me in as a Dave fan ,nothing "sad" about it .I have music from all decades in my collection .I only watched to see Lewis Capaldi though ,he makes me smile .Its good to see a celebrity who doesn't take himself seriously

Gaga

'All the racist apologists are out tonight, I see. Ridiculous, considering that is what this thread is about.'
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You were asked a simple question. Pity you resorted to calling posters ' Racist Apologists '.

Usually that form of attack is used when the attacker feels uncomfortable and their only avenue out of the situation is to make it nasty and personal.

I take your point re Chaucer but I thought in this century we had established boundaries whilst respecting the literature from times gone by. I certainly thought we had established boundaries as to what words are now deemed sexist and racist yet it seems it is permissable to be used by some and not to others.

I must be wrong to think calling females Hoes and using the word n***ga were off limits but that obviously does not apply to artistes only to everybody else and I find that perverse and hypocritical, especially when they are being feted.

What would you do if you heard one of your male students calling a female student a Hoe or a white student calling a black student a n***ga, tell them that's fine if Chaucer can do it so can you.

We don't even type words in full because of the offence we know it causes but hey it's fine for others. The irony of who/when and where it is deemed acceptable is most peculiar.

^POGS* spot on.

As I am of necessity a wide reader, I can assure you that much literature that is considered worthy contains words, not to mention content, that is offensive.

As it so happens, I posted the clip that is on here on the International Baccalaureate forum as something to be taught alongside Shakespeare. A text that is DIRECTLY speaking about the ostracism of a Jewish man. To say that the international English teaching community were excited by the video would be a massive understatement.

Another teacher (no one known to me) has in the last 2 hours, gone away and put together a scheme of work, based on the that video and 3 others from the same artist.

So while I appreciate, you are not a fan it seems you are not correct about it not being judged worthy as a literary text.

Finally, my racism point was simple. He directly talks about racism. And yet his work is dismissed because it is a genre that is deemed less worthy because he uses the sociolect of his class and ethnicity. That dismissal in itself is rooted in racism.

GagaJo
INCREDIBLE performance. Using it in my teaching next week. Makes me proud to be English, such talent

If you intend using this in your teaching. Please also add this to your lesson plan:
www.gutenberg.org/files/52423/52423-h/52423-h.htm

That would be addressed in history Joelsnan.

The other text I'm teaching it alongside is the persecution of a Jewish man. The two compliment each other.

But as I said in my previous post, it isn't just me teaching it. It's been adopted as a text by the International Baccalaureate.

Gagajo
When slavery, white supremacy and racism is bandied about, then the above book is not history. It puts into perspective the lives of the majority of people alive at that time and should be understood to give balance to the current debate.

www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/19/daves-rap-was-just-dull-woke-groupthink/

Another perspective.

Last week I attended the screening of a film and a debate about sex slave trafficking in Eastern Europe and Thailand with my students. They are not getting a one sided picture.

For my teaching purposes, my English lessons are considering non literary texts with similar themes alongside literary ones. This is a requirement of the international course I teach, a world wide, internationally acclaimed course of academic rigour.

Why do you object to a black British man being recognised for his talent? He has won awards. He is being studied by academics. WHAT is so offensive about his success to you?

Gagajo

'I can assure you that much literature that is considered worthy contains words, not to mention content, that is offensive.'
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Of course it is but as you say ' that is deemed offensive'

Socially we as a civilised society positively squirm at the use of the ' N' word don't we? I won't even type the word for fear of being accused of using racist language it has become so toxic.
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'So while I appreciate, you are not a fan it seems you are not correct about it not being judged worthy as a literary text.'

I never said a word about it being judged as literary text. I could not care less. I am pointing out the hyocricy behind it all.
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' Finally, my racism point was simple. He directly talks about racism. And yet his work is dismissed because it is a genre that is deemed less worthy because he uses the sociolect of his class and ethnicity. That dismissal in itself is rooted in racism.'
----

I do not deem anybody ' less worthy ', that' s why I am discussing his lyrics as I would any other person who uses them.
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As for ' sociolect of his class and ethnicity ' if I were to say something along the lines of ' X uses the words to describe women as Hoes and uses the word n**ga because of his class and ethnicity ' I would be probably called racist.

I understand exactly what sociolect means but when bringing sociolect in as a reason to excuse what society now observes as using sexist or racist words such as n***ga then that is both irony and hypocricy.

Perhaps it is time to either stop all use of certain words such as the ' N' word for example or simply let words flow free as it is impossible to permit some to use words that are deemed wholely insensitive /racist whilst expecting everybody else to conform.

Hell if Boris Johnson called him a n***ga he wouldn't last a minute but it's OK if it is in the context of sociolect it's not offensive. Crazy.

How can things change, how can we expect kids not to use the words they hear especially by those who are feted, where is the line to be drawn and who in society benefits the most from society stopping using words like ni**a, that is why it is all so ironic.

Boris, our illustrious PM has used the phrases, 'water melon smiles' and 'piccanninies'. I have not a single doubt he has used the N word, given his obvious, shameless, overt racism, a la Trump.

Of Mice and Men, Steinbeck is frequently taught in schools. It contains the N word, and insults women and SEN people. Children read it and understand the moral message. Give them credit for intelligence. It is all in the teaching.

Children understand the concept of taboo language, which we should not use. Have no fear. They understand 'context is all'. Having worked on three continents, I can assure you that rule applies everywhere (English speaking of course, I can't speak for non English speakers).

I reiterate: Why do you object to a black British man being recognised for his talent? He has won awards. He is being studied by academics. WHAT is so offensive about his success to you?

Clearly, that is a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious.

Gagajo

'I reiterate: Why do you object to a black British man being recognised for his talent? He has won awards. He is being studied by academics. WHAT is so offensive about his success to you?

Clearly, that is a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious.'
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The only ' obvious ' thing is you are calling me a ' racist ' but you don' t have the guts to say so outright so you think by saying that is not a rhetorical question you can get away with it.

As I said to you in a previous post when you deemed to accuse posters of being ' racist apologists ' :-

Usually that form of attack is used when the attacker feels uncomfortable and their only avenue out of the situation is to make it nasty and personal.

' I reiterate: Why do you object to a black British man being recognised for his talent? He has won awards. He is being studied by academics. WHAT is so offensive about his success to you?'
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I reiterate I do not care about the colour of his skin, he has won awards or being studied by academics, even Tommy Robinson has won awards and been studied by academics.

There is nothing 'offensive ' about his success but it is interesting any debate about his lyrics is to be shut down by calling anybody who does so a ' racist/racist apologist '.

I have a 13 year old granddaughter and it was her who in the past has raised the lyrics in some genre of music that she listens to and her friends, peers. Grime /Drill being one of them. She told me to listen to it and we have discussed, as you do with your students I'm sure, what context means but we also discuss that it is not appropriate for her to repeat words such as Hoe and N***ga and I would hope she would not except being in the company of anybody who uses those words as a matter of course. We have spoken maturely about it and we came to the conclusion if it is acceptable in music then how can kids be expected not to copy.

What if not leading by example what will teach kids and the wider society to not use words such as Hoe, N***ga, that is why I feel Dave has such a platform to do just that because he is of the moment and could use his activism to stop sexism and racism in general.

You posted 'Give them credit for intelligence. It is all in the teaching.' I agree it is ' all in the teaching ' the teaching of context but that too can have more than just one point of view and the right and wrong of actions, spoken or physical.

I think Dave’s lyrics are boring and full of ‘shit’ his favourite word, used liberally.
He would do better to inspire young black people not to make them feel sullen about the world.
Will he still be an angry young man when he’s 45? Probably, if there’s money in it.

You're hardly his target market, LG. I'm sure he'll lose no sleep over your lack of support.

Which awards did Yardley lennon win?

He won the Soap awards
Oops misread thought you said
Yardleys Lemon