'Viewpoint' on ITV and Noel Clarke

It is, Iam, and it's high time the perpetrators were blamed, instead of it being assumed that their actions are the fault of 'the system' which allowed it, or that they are unfortunate victims of malicious accusations.

Women shouldn't need to limit their behaviour to keep themselves safe, and if inappropriate behaviour has taken place, they should feel able to tell others without fearing that they will be blamed. Like most women, I experienced routine casual episodes of inappropriate behaviour in the 60s, but I never told my mother, as my freedom was restricted enough as it was, and it would have been restricted further if she had known.

My mother was a believer in women having responsibility for not encouraging 'men's urges', rather than in men being taught/made to behave appropriately. I thought that that sort of attitude had died out, but judging by many responses on this thread it would seem not.

Surely the main point is that men need to be taught how to behave, rather than suggesting brothers and cousins need to teach girls how to keep themselves safe
JaneJudge, I suspect most women have had experiences similar to yours. Disgusting isn’t it

I am sometimes a bit overly confident (to JaneJudge) ; at times
I forget that we are all individuals and not everyone had brothers and cousins like I did to teach us a bit about how to keep safe I know that should be a job for parents but mine never had conversations like that with me.

It is sad that your father was abusive so telling anyone about what happened would have been difficult.
On a positive level it sounds like you met a kind man that has given you a stable relationship and so you have been able to change your views and attitudes of boundaries so that is a win win situation for you.

I am not implying I was saved 'by a man' btw just that meeting him and having a stable relationship has shaped my views and attitudes of boundaries in a more positive manner. I am sure I have made his life more positive as well ;)

No I didn't tell anyone. My Father was abusive though so I suspect I had just accepted it was normal? Luckily I married someone very nice when I was young, which I think has helped me no end with appropriate behaviour but it has taken a long time iykwim

When I use the Hub on my iPad or IPhone I can get subtitles.

JaneJudge that sounds horrible didn't you make him aware that was unacceptable behaviour?
I grew up with brothers and cousins and the older ones taught us that we must keep safe and nobody had a right to touch our bodies.
I was out once with two friends and we thought we were so clever because a group of hells angels were showing us attention. We were about 14 and everything was alright and then one of them put his hand on my boobie without any hesitation I smacked him across the face and all the other guys started laughing at him. Myself and my friends just walked away , no one should do that to someone and think it is appropriate.

I was inclined to the “innocent till proven guilty” viewpoint for about 5 minutes until I read the Guardian article. Plenty of evidence of abusive behaviour has been seen, and the accusations aren’t all from anonymous victims by any means. There is no way Clarke could have continued working in the circumstances. And there are colleagues and friends of his who should hang their heads in shame for going along with the bullying and abuse and not speaking up in defence of these women.

I can see why ITV couldn’t broadcast episode 5 of Viewpoint as scheduled, on the day the news broke, but do think that in fairness to the rest of the cast and crew and their viewers it should be shown at some stage. We’ve watched it on the hub today, but not everyone has that option and, as has been pointed out, some people need to have the option of subtitles.

I remember when I was 15/16 working in a local pub waitressing and the manager, a bloke in his 50s, used to rub up against me on purpose so I could feel his private parts on butt cheeks
Just one story of many
In those days you wouldn't tell your Mother either, mine always though everything was MY fault.

The last episode is on itvhub until midnight tonight. (2nd May). It’s the best episode by far if you have watched it so far.

Galaxy

A society that does not challenge this behaviour is also a dangerous one. The victims commissioner has recently described the system for prosecuting rape as not fit for purpose, only 1.5 % of cases that went to court produced a charge. In other words rape is pretty much legal. Most of this behaviour wouldnt even meet the criteria for a court case, woman are just expected to tolerate it.
I think we need to be calling out this behaviour immediately, I think some workplaces can create a culture which is toxic, and from some of the information available it seems that has been the case.

This.
Many of us worked in toxic work environments, offices, factories, engineering works were awful places for young women in the 60’s in my experience. Reading the comments from women who worked with NC reminded me of the harassment, casual touching of breasts and bottoms by men. Complaints to the managers were universally met by ‘oh he means no harm, ‘that’s just his way ‘
I read his female costar in Viewpoint has expressed solidarity with the complainants.

No the deal with the other providers would have been done pre production or post production before anything was shown, however there could be a clause relating to viewing figures in the deal which could substantially benefit ITV if the last episode wasn't shown. It's all hypothetical of course.

trisher

The deal would already have been done Doodledag. They are usually finalised in pre or post production, it's the numbers that would watch it that matter. It would have gone to other providers anyway.

Are you saying that the pulling of the last episode was set up before the news broke, in order to make money for ITV?

The last episode should have been shown as I feel sorry for the rest of the cast as it is not their fault. He need to be brought to task, if these stories are true. But over 20 women saying about him then he must be guilty. I feel so sorry for his wife and family.

The deal would already have been done Doodledag. They are usually finalised in pre or post production, it's the numbers that would watch it that matter. It would have gone to other providers anyway.

That would be a PR disaster unless Clarke is found innocent of all charges, which is highly unlikely, surely?

Well it's only on ITVHub for the rest of today and then it disappears, could it possibly be that they have a commercial deal with another provider and are hoping people will pay to find out whodunnit?

A society that does not challenge this behaviour is also a dangerous one. The victims commissioner has recently described the system for prosecuting rape as not fit for purpose, only 1.5 % of cases that went to court produced a charge. In other words rape is pretty much legal. Most of this behaviour wouldnt even meet the criteria for a court case, woman are just expected to tolerate it.
I think we need to be calling out this behaviour immediately, I think some workplaces can create a culture which is toxic, and from some of the information available it seems that has been the case.

If someone who had just fitted your kitchen and to whom you owed money reported your kitchen was on fire you might well wonder how the fire had started.
I’m probably being dim, but I’m not sure I follow this analogy. Who is the metaphorical firestarter?

Nice one ITV. What was the point of putting it on the Hub instead. What difference did that make, just a tad hypocritical shall we say.
I never watch ITV, and only watched this programme because the leading actress is from my neck of the woods. After watching the first four episodes I wanted to know the outcome.
I am deaf, wear a hearing aid, and always have sub-titles on the screen so that my TV is not too loud. Any catch up programme be it from BBC or ITV or Channel 4 or any of the others never has sub-titles for some reason.
So thank you ITV, a pointless gesture in my opinion, and it completely ruined it for me.
You may think that this is a selfish attitude to have, but what did ITV achieve by changing channels ?

I don't think many people are actually questioning or undervaluing the women or their statements, what they are saying is that a society that judges instantly and without proper recourse to defence and response is a dangerous society. One of the reasons we do this is because we know in the past women have been victims of such treatment and we have no wish to see it introduced once again.
As for the kitchen on fire statement.
If someone who had just fitted your kitchen and to whom you owed money reported your kitchen was on fire you might well wonder how the fire had started.

Yes, I think I am often out of step when it comes to TV programming decisions so it is probably I who am wrong ?.

I never approve of bumping regular programmes for sport, or of pulling dramas dealing with issues that are in the news (such as murder mysteries that have similarities with ongoing cases). Unless they might sway a jury, it strikes me as a bit pointless, as friends and family of victims are hardly likely to be watching TV anyway.

I know that those views are minority, though, so I’m probably not the best barometer.

Doodledog

I don’t think it is the biggest issue - not by any means - but I’m not sure that it was necessary, and not sure what was achieved by pulling the episode, other than making a gesture of solidarity with the victims. I can’t help thinking that that gesture would have been better made by casting someone else in the role in the first place.

But given they hadn’t, the gesture was better than showing it on the main channel wasn’t it ? ITV had to deal with it as things were not how they should ( perhaps) have been, they did . I’m just surprised we’re still commenting on that decision quite frankly.

I don’t think it is the biggest issue - not by any means - but I’m not sure that it was necessary, and not sure what was achieved by pulling the episode, other than making a gesture of solidarity with the victims. I can’t help thinking that that gesture would have been better made by casting someone else in the role in the first place.

If anyone thinks the biggest issue at stake is that an episode of a drama show won't be shown on terrestrial TV, the world has become a very odd place.