Should Anne Boleyn be played by a black actress ?

?? Toadinthehole. But you’re up against an ‘expert’.
There are millions of films where factual accuracy isn’t involved because they’re about invented people. It’s neither unreasonable nor racist to expect accuracy of appearance in a film about a real person.
‘The rest of us are grown-ups’ reminds me of ‘you’re not in our gang’ in the playground. It basically meant, “If you don’t agree with me you must be wrong.”
I could live with that back then so I guess I can now.

Ad hominem.

Don't you just love it.

The question needs to be asked ‘why was the role of Anne Boleyn given to a black actor’ ? Am guessing that the producers of the programme would say something on the lines of ‘we wanted to put a new concept out there’.
So where does it go from there? Will Louis Armstrong be played by an Asian actor? Will Shakespeare be played by a Japanese actor? There are plenty of acting roles for black and Asian actors in the UK and we see many more now in dramas and comedy and in adverts, which is as it should be.
However taking well known figures from British history and changing their colour is ridiculous.

Mollygo ??????

Ad hominem and ad infinitum. Glad you love it.
On the other hand I’d REALLY like to see a video about Trump played by a black actor.
The fall out from that wouldn’t just be in the tiny world of GN, yet I’m sure the actor would be able to convey all the political pomp and bombast, tragedy and comedy necessary to give the audience a real feeling of what went on.

And so it goes on. Doodledog I’m so sorry the painting was done later.
No need to apologise. I know that a lot of people think that that portrait is the definitive likeness of AB, but it really isn't. It was painted at least 20 years after her death, with (obviously) no photographic likeness to work from.

*Do you think it would be appropriate to show a video of the Mary Seacole where she is portrayed by a white person?
Yes or No.*
Gosh. It's like being interrogated in court! No.

Mind you, I suppose you, having less interest in fact, would dismiss it as not about the colour of the person but about nursing in the time of the Crimean War. It’s a useful get-out idea.
I am interested in fact, which is why I keep repeating that what we often believe to be fact is, in fact, repeated falsehoods, or misconceptions. Anne's sixth finger and her third nipple were deliberate rumours spread to suggest that she was a witch. Her portraits were destroyed, so we don't have a true likeness, apart from one tiny one on a coin or medal, which is worn with age. This is it - from the British Museum.

Re Mary Seacole (and this really is getting tedious now), if the film were about the way in which the significance of her role was criticised had racial undertones, then it would not make sense for her to be played by a while actor. In my opinion. In fact, casting her as white would add to those undertones.

Why are people being so unpleasant on these threads? There is no need to put words in my mouth. I do not 'dismiss' her sorry as 'just about nursing in the Crimea', and I don't need 'get-out ideas'. I am not involved in casting, and I have no axe to grind.
I am just responding to the constant 'it is not accurate' comments made by people who don't accept that a lot of what they see as 'facts' are nothing of the kind, and to the 'what about if [insert black historical character of choice] were played by a white person?' ones. Sadly, the stories of most black historical characters have a racial element to them, even if they were famous for their talents or heroic deeds, so the analogies simply don't apply.

Mollygo

?? Toadinthehole. But you’re up against an ‘expert’.
There are millions of films where factual accuracy isn’t involved because they’re about invented people. It’s neither unreasonable nor racist to expect accuracy of appearance in a film about a real person.
‘The rest of us are grown-ups’ reminds me of ‘you’re not in our gang’ in the playground. It basically meant, “If you don’t agree with me you must be wrong.”
I could live with that back then so I guess I can now.

Yes, I wouldn’t want to be in that ‘gang’. That’s me out.

We may not have a photographic likeness of Anne Boleyn but we do know that she wasn’t a black woman.
How about that one thing to respond to? Forget extra fingers/ nipples etc.
Also, it is pertinent to the subject to say why not have a black person from history played by a white/ Asian/ Japanese actor.
If colour of skin doesn’t matter then anything goes, right?
Except it doesn’t and we all know that.

I have responded, over and over. I don't know how many ways I can say it.

In my opinion, which is all I have offered, it doesn't matter that she wasn't black, any more than it matters whether she had a wart on her bum. She was a queen who was beheaded by her husband, who discarded her when she didn't produce a male heir. That is her story.

Making everything about her skin colour is not adding to, or detracting from that story.

Doodle dog, you are entitled to that view. I don’t think anyone is saying you are not, simply that their view differs from yours and is equally valid. It’s not a case of “What I tell you three times is true.”
As Alegrias1 posted ‘ad hominem’ and I added to, ‘Ad hominem, ad infinitum.’

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202105/medium-569969-anne-boleyn.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202105/medium-875166-anne-boleyn2.jpg

Keith Michell had a couple of Anne Boleyns who were close to being accurate. Dorothy Tutin in The Six Wives of Henry VIII (TV series) and Charlotte Rampling in Henry VIII and his Six Wives (movie). Anne was a real person so let's try and get it right.

I know, and I'm sick of repeating the same thing too.

But lemongrove is goading me for some reason, and directly asked me to respond to her point (again), so I did.

I'm out now, though.

My last post was to Mollygo.

As there are portraits of Anne Boleyn it is disconcerting to see a historical figure played by a black actor. I know Othello has been played by white actors but he is a work of fiction and there are no portraits available. Also over the hundreds of years since it was written countless white actors have played it so has become normal. However, black actors have been taking up the role and it is good to see.

‘But Lemongrove is goading me’ ......what a load of rubbish.
It’s a discussion for Heaven’s sake. I was asking a question of you Doodledog.

Chestnut I loved the Keith Michell series, wasn’t it wonderful??

lemongrove I loved the Keith Michell series, wasn’t it wonderful?
Like Elizabeth R (Glenda Jackson) it attempted to be historically accurate, rather than going for sensationalism, sex and glamour like they do now. When you watch these old series now they seem very slow and plodding, so you have to adjust your head to the slow pace and allow yourself time to absorb the plot. Ultimately, it is worthwhile because they did strive at realism I think.

Alegrias1

OK, got my breath back.

I just feel the whole thing is patronising to black people. It’s clearly about ticking boxes, and while this black actress may be very good, she’s not been chosen for that reason.
You have no idea why she was chosen and are assuming political correctness because that is the easy way not to have to face the real issues.

There are so many films/ dramas etc, where black people would be the only choice, as in the examples people have already given.
Code for "These black people should know their place. Coming over here, stealing our roles."

Eponine was an outcast and ages in the story (book, musical, film) from being a child to being a young woman, and in the musical sings one of the best songs ever about unrequited love. It doesn't matter one shiny **** what colour she is. The people who left because of this are ignorant philistines who didn't deserve their money back.

No, it’s spoiling things for everyone. No, its spoiling it for you. The rest of us are grown ups. Live with it.

Alegrias, why were you questioning toad on how many black people she knows? What’s this got to do with anything?

It doesn’t matter what colour Eponine is...you are right, but she changed colour when she became an adult!
If you’re just there for something to do, it may not bother you, but for art lovers, who may have paid £100 a ticket, I can see that would be annoying. You could also have groups of students studying musicals. It’s just not right.

There was no need for your response to be so unpleasant.

I didn't question anyone on how many people of colour they knew, I suggest you might want to read my post again.

I did pay quite a lot to see Les Mis in the West End, when Eponine was played by Lea Salonga, from the Philippines. I missed Alexia Khadime but I suspect she was very good.

The oblique sneer about art lovers is not going to work on me I'm afraid - bit obvious, I thought. The reference to students studying musicals, is just a bit bizarre....

I hope the people who left the performance if Les Mis never went to see Warhorse. How would they have coped with the staging? Oh, and Cats. I guess some people must have been very confused by that. They're not real cats!! I want my money back!

Alegrias1

Please tell me you didn't just write "Some of my best friends are black".

toad said she ‘ has black friends’. Why are you questioning it? You’re whole attitude is so patronising, but you have to live with that. We can walk away.

www.niot.org/blog/some-my-best-friends-are-black-defense

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_not_racist,_I_have_Black_friends

So, not questioning at all whether anyone has black friends. Pointing out the logical fallacy that saying you have "black friends" is a defence or excuse for having discriminatory views. Maybe you didn't understand my reference.

You obviously don’t either, that’s why you seem to spend all your time on Google! Have a good evening.

Oh, I'm cut to the bone by the witty responses. (Not)

I didn't know what 'ad hominem' meant until today!
So at least that's one good thing that has come out of this thread!

I hope you didn't google that Fanny

?