Izzard as female reimagining of Dr Jekyll, anyone ?

trisher

Callistemon21

trisher

The idea that I would ever support a man telling a women what to do will have my friends in stitches!

Can you not see the irony, then, trisher?

In order to accommodate the 1% trans people in the population, the 50% of women have to be trampled on.

Well I don't know any women who have been trampled on by a transwomen. So a little evidence to support that statement would seem essential.

I just thought that I do know a few women who have had their rights trampled on by other women- women seeking refuge in this country and asylum seekers already in this country have seen their rights absolutely stamped on by Pritti Patel.

trisher

The idea that I would ever support a man telling a women what to do will have my friends in stitches!

To be honest, your posts on here do suggest that you favour men over women. I have asked directly if you have ever supported anything that would put women first if all else were equal and a choice had to be made, and you fudged the reply. I have asked if you have ever supported anything that put women's rights above those of transwomen, and you fudged that reply, too. Whenever someone posts about vulnerable women being threatened by the presence of men (however they define) you point out that women can also be violent/sex predators etc, rather than post in support of the vulnerable members of your own sex. You have often said that 'your feminism' includes men, which is, to me, a contradiction in terms. Men can support feminism, but feminism can't include men's rights over women's - as soon as it does that it is no longer feminism.

A feminist (the clue's in the name) puts women first, or at least foreground women in their thinking. Clearly, policies which put women first for the sake of it, or which discriminate against other groups in favour of women are undesirable (or would be if they existed), but when rights clash, feminists would always ensure that women's rights are not secondary, and I don't see you doing that. Obviously, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - have I missed an example of your putting women before men, or before transwomen? Ever?

Your friends may have a different perspective, of course - I can only go on what is posted here - or maybe it's just that they share your views.

trisher

Mollygo

Eddie Izzard, however ‘good at acting’ he is, is supported by the patriarchal feminism group.
Patriarchal feminists in case you haven’t come across them, are a group (some claiming to be feminists) composed of :
-some men,
-those TW who are ill-intentioned,
-people like the producer who decided to offer Izzard the role rewritten for a woman,
and sadly,
-some women.
Patriarchal Feminists support the idea that men still have the right to say what women (AHF) are allowed to have, do or say. They declare that anyone who doesn’t support this is discriminatory and anti-trans.
Be on the look out for patriarchal feminists. They will try to override the efforts of real feminists to achieve and maintain existing and future rights for females.

Once again a misunderstanding of what a patriachy does. The patriachy is the group of mainly white men who have organised our society since women stopped running it (basically when we began farming and stopped being nomadic). Their main concerns are maintaining power and protecting property. They do this through setting one section of society against another and by scaring others about those who are different to them. In the resulting conflict they simply make sure their position remains unthreatened. So Christians against Jews or against Muslims and vice versa. Now women against transpeople. The 1970s wave of feminism unfortunately bought into this and sought to change the people in charge from men to women but left the system unchanged. Not surprisingly that didn't work. Intersectional feminism has looked at the bigger picture and realised there are levels of oppression and that uniting the oppressed may at times include people who have suffered under the patriachy just as much as women have. And not surprisingly they have decided it isn't enough just to ask that women become the same as men but that the whole system needs to change because the patriachy damages everyone. Smash the Patriachy! This is a great explanaion koolkanya.com/blogs/passion/8-ways-to-smash-the-patriarchy-with-love-and-compassion/

That sounds suspiciously like Mansplaining .

Patriarchy, like feminism, is one of those words that mean different things to different people, and those who like to 'back up' their own views on the matter can easily find quotes with the aid of Google.

IMO, (FWIW), patriarchy is the underlying assumption that men and men's needs are paramount, and that women are supposed to support them. It takes different forms in different circumstances, so is difficult to pin down.

Men taking women's places in sport, pushing their way into changing rooms, pushing aside female shortlists and insisting on changes to the language to massage their egos are all, however, pretty obvious examples of the patriarchy in action.

I do like Molly's concept of patriarchal feminists, as I think we are all aware of them about, but hadn't heard of that name. It seems to be contradiction, but is in fact just an oxymoron, and many of those are illuminating.

maddyone

I don’t care what he identifies as, if he’s got XY chromosomes, he’s biologically a male. I have no problem with people deciding to live as the opposite sex, and going through with the surgery and hormones, but they can never change sex. It’s not possible to change every cell in a human body.
I agree, if he’s taken the role from a female, shame on him.

There is absolutely no evidence that the role would ever have been offered to a woman. And writers sometimes have a specific actor in mind when they write a screenplay.

Callistemon21

trisher

The idea that I would ever support a man telling a women what to do will have my friends in stitches!

Can you not see the irony, then, trisher?

In order to accommodate the 1% trans people in the population, the 50% of women have to be trampled on.

Well I don't know any women who have been trampled on by a transwomen. So a little evidence to support that statement would seem essential.

Mollygo

trisher, patriarchy as you describe it has evolved into exactly what Patriarchal Feminism involves. For explanation, see above.

Mollygo if you choose to make me and other women who support transgender rights your enemy that is your choice. Personally I can't see how that actually contributes to smashing the patriachy. Indeed as some transgender people are women who choose to be men, and I support their rights just as much as I support those of men who want to be women I can't see any connection at all with the patriachy. I'm actually much more interested in the methods we can use to work against it than I am in these endless debates.

As far as acting and cross gender roles go I prefer to judge solely on the basis of artistic merit. If the actor is good in the role gender is irrelevant

trisher

The idea that I would ever support a man telling a women what to do will have my friends in stitches!

Can you not see the irony, then, trisher?

In order to accommodate the 1% trans people in the population, the 50% of women have to be trampled on.

I don’t care what he identifies as, if he’s got XY chromosomes, he’s biologically a male. I have no problem with people deciding to live as the opposite sex, and going through with the surgery and hormones, but they can never change sex. It’s not possible to change every cell in a human body.
I agree, if he’s taken the role from a female, shame on him.

trisher, patriarchy as you describe it has evolved into exactly what Patriarchal Feminism involves. For explanation, see above.

The idea that I would ever support a man telling a women what to do will have my friends in stitches!

Mollygo

Eddie Izzard, however ‘good at acting’ he is, is supported by the patriarchal feminism group.
Patriarchal feminists in case you haven’t come across them, are a group (some claiming to be feminists) composed of :
-some men,
-those TW who are ill-intentioned,
-people like the producer who decided to offer Izzard the role rewritten for a woman,
and sadly,
-some women.
Patriarchal Feminists support the idea that men still have the right to say what women (AHF) are allowed to have, do or say. They declare that anyone who doesn’t support this is discriminatory and anti-trans.
Be on the look out for patriarchal feminists. They will try to override the efforts of real feminists to achieve and maintain existing and future rights for females.

Once again a misunderstanding of what a patriachy does. The patriachy is the group of mainly white men who have organised our society since women stopped running it (basically when we began farming and stopped being nomadic). Their main concerns are maintaining power and protecting property. They do this through setting one section of society against another and by scaring others about those who are different to them. In the resulting conflict they simply make sure their position remains unthreatened. So Christians against Jews or against Muslims and vice versa. Now women against transpeople. The 1970s wave of feminism unfortunately bought into this and sought to change the people in charge from men to women but left the system unchanged. Not surprisingly that didn't work. Intersectional feminism has looked at the bigger picture and realised there are levels of oppression and that uniting the oppressed may at times include people who have suffered under the patriachy just as much as women have. And not surprisingly they have decided it isn't enough just to ask that women become the same as men but that the whole system needs to change because the patriachy damages everyone. Smash the Patriachy! This is a great explanaion koolkanya.com/blogs/passion/8-ways-to-smash-the-patriarchy-with-love-and-compassion/

In order to accommodate the 1% trans people in the population, the 50% of women have to be trampled on.

Talking of single sex spaces, there is a swimmer in the US, lately called Leah something or other who is beating all the natal women at their game. That person I have read still has their male genitalia and uses the women's changing areas, where in the process of changing, his genitals are often exposed. Some of the women do not like this, I imagine the majority of women would feel the same, does their disquiet not matter in this drive for inclusivity ?

Eddie Izzard, however ‘good at acting’ he is, is supported by the patriarchal feminism group.
Patriarchal feminists in case you haven’t come across them, are a group (some claiming to be feminists) composed of :
-some men,
-those TW who are ill-intentioned,
-people like the producer who decided to offer Izzard the role rewritten for a woman,
and sadly,
-some women.
Patriarchal Feminists support the idea that men still have the right to say what women (AHF) are allowed to have, do or say. They declare that anyone who doesn’t support this is discriminatory and anti-trans.
Be on the look out for patriarchal feminists. They will try to override the efforts of real feminists to achieve and maintain existing and future rights for females.

Rosie51

trisher

Rosie51

trisher

Sorry I thought one of the points being made was that a male character had become female? I simply pointed out this is a common occurrence in film making.

I think the main point being made, clearly to my mind, was that a role had been re-imagined from a male character to a female character, and normal logic would expect that character to now be played by a female actor not a male one, otherwise why bother with the change?

That's a bit like asking what is the point of any script, if you haven't read it how can you possibly comment?

Sorry but I truly don't understand this comment, please can you elucidate?
My point is why bother rewriting a story to change the titular role from male to female if you then cast a male, no matter how that male presents, in the role?
As for barriers it seems to me that it is trans agenda and the allies who are putting up barriers. Wear a dress, like pink, frills, nail varnish and sequins....you're a girl. Blue, cars, short hair and dinosaurs....over to the boys corner.
The fact that some directors and/or writers have decided their main character should be rewritten as the other sex (and acted by a person of that sex) does not validate Eddie Izzard or any other male being cast in a female role. Will this production make it clear Jekyll/Hyde is now a male transgender person?

I don't know Rosie51 I haven't read the script- which I think was my point. This is a bit like the blind men of Hindustan and the elephant.

Rosie51 and Doodledog I refuse to getinto the same old arguments with you. Single sex spaces are protected by law and as far as I know they will continue to be. The rest is the same old same old. Which actually has absolutely nothing to do with a proposed film script and the actor being asked to play a part.

FarNorth

Izzard can currently be heard on BBC Sounds, reading from his autobiography.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b08vxt0l

Well worth listening to I heard it first time round.

Izzard can currently be heard on BBC Sounds, reading from his autobiography.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b08vxt0l

Cross posted, SueDonim

Well that's weird. Gender is a social construct.. Dismantling the norms of that social construct in no way impacts on sex how can it? It is something which changes anyway. The gender norms of the Victorians are not the gender norms of today. They change all the time. Bending and dismantling them changes society not sex.

What's 'weird' about that? I agree that gender and sex are different, and of course gender norms change over time, place and culture, and have never said otherwise. That is why I don't believe that there is a need to change gender - you can't. Gender is about external things, which we appear to agree are fixed in time, place etc. They (the gender norms) change - people can't change to 'be' them.

There are men who feel they are women and women who feel they are men. How they are going to be made to stop feeling that I really don't know.
I don't understand this. How does it 'feel' to be a man or a woman? 'Feeling' like a woman, would, in my experience, leave plenty of scope for ignoring gender stereotypes and living life as you please, whether that includes conforming to traditional 'female' stereotypes or not, so why the need to 'change' and insist that people go along with the pretence?

Will single sex facilities remain if gender norms are bent or disappear? Well why wouldn't they? Do you expect me to list them? Even assuming I could list all those which exist now, in a society where gender norms have radically changed there might be some new ones.
Why wouldn't they? Well, because it is becoming increasingly difficult for women to even say they are female. Men, claiming to be transwomen, are allowed into female spaces, and before you quote the law, we all know that it is often ignored because of ignorance. Even at the top levels of sport, there are no single sex competitions, and as we've discussed, women in serious distress are no longer able to insist on a biological female to examine them, or to counsel them after being raped. Female prisons now house male inmates and so on. I could list more examples of where female spaces have become unisex, but am more interested in knowing the ones you believe should stay as female spaces.

There are men who feel they are women and women who feel they are men. How they are going to be made to stop feeling that I really don't know

What does it mean, to ‘feel they are women/men’? Is woman a feeling? Do all women feel the same? How do I know my feelings are those of a woman? Maybe I have the feelings of a man. Of course, I don’t know because no one has ever explained what these feelings actually feel like!

One thing I do know, magical thinking and womanface do not a woman make.

So a male who takes a female role which has been rewritten specifically for a female is not part of the patriarchy that says it has a right to do whatever it wants rather than accepting that women (AHF) have rights and entitlements.
OK trisher I get you. You simply want men to be in power. I thought women had fought long and hard to overcome the ‘men are in charge and set the rules’.
However, when they established some measure of success, we began to see men seeking ways to destroy that success and even managed to suck some women into their delusions of grandeur.
Hence, a man can take a female role, specifically rewritten as a role for a female, just by saying he has girly days, or claiming to be a female and you support the patriarchal act of doing that.

trisher Gender is a social construct
Hallelujah! How many times have I seen Doodledog and others try to explain this and that it differs from sex, so sex segregation should be honoured no matter the 'gender presentation' which is just a stereotype!

trisher

Rosie51

trisher

Sorry I thought one of the points being made was that a male character had become female? I simply pointed out this is a common occurrence in film making.

I think the main point being made, clearly to my mind, was that a role had been re-imagined from a male character to a female character, and normal logic would expect that character to now be played by a female actor not a male one, otherwise why bother with the change?

That's a bit like asking what is the point of any script, if you haven't read it how can you possibly comment?

Sorry but I truly don't understand this comment, please can you elucidate?
My point is why bother rewriting a story to change the titular role from male to female if you then cast a male, no matter how that male presents, in the role?
As for barriers it seems to me that it is trans agenda and the allies who are putting up barriers. Wear a dress, like pink, frills, nail varnish and sequins....you're a girl. Blue, cars, short hair and dinosaurs....over to the boys corner.
The fact that some directors and/or writers have decided their main character should be rewritten as the other sex (and acted by a person of that sex) does not validate Eddie Izzard or any other male being cast in a female role. Will this production make it clear Jekyll/Hyde is now a male transgender person?

Doodledog

I didn't equate it. I asked two separate questions.

I disagree that barriers that allow men to nurture and women to step outside of gender roles should be dismantled; but to me, that's the crux of the matter - gender is a construct, and insisting that it can be changed buys into the notion that it is somehow connected to sex.

The TWAW mantra reinforces gender roles by saying that men who 'see themselves as women' (although so few ever say what that means) can only step outside of those roles by 'being' women, if only in their heads. I would much rather see men being men as they care and nurture, and women being women as they step outside of assigned roles, and neither sex feeling that they have to abandon their sex in favour of the other in order to do so.

My other question is whether there is anything that you would protect and keep for women (in fact for either sex) without opening it to all comers?

Well that's weird. Gender is a social construct.. Dismantling the norms of that social construct in no way impacts on sex how can it? It is something which changes anyway. The gender norms of the Victorians are not the gender norms of today. They change all the time. Bending and dismantling them changes society not sex.

There are men who feel they are women and women who feel they are men. How they are going to be made to stop feeling that I really don't know.

Will single sex facilities remain if gender norms are bent or disappear? Well why wouldn't they? Do you expect me to list them? Even assuming I could list all those which exist now, in a society where gender norms have radically changed there might be some new ones.