The Reckoning - Savile

Sago

We have to allow children to follow their gut instincts.

As a child I had an “Uncle”, no relation just a family friend, he always insisted I sit on his knee, he would tickle me and I hated it, he always wanted me to kiss him goodbye, I once refused and then got a real telling off from my parents.

I now realise uncle Frank was definitely wrong but my stupid parents had no inkling.

I now realise uncle Frank was definitely wrong but my stupid parents had no inkling.

My late EX occasionally had coffee with his NDNs during weekends- they had a daughter of around 11/12 who was a naturally affectionate child. She used to immediately jump on his knee and give him a hug and just sit there smiling at him.

After a while he became uncomfortable with this and asked me to tactfully suggest to the parents that it wasn't a good idea to encourage the girl - the parents just smiled fondly at their daughter when she did this - to sit on visiting men's knees. He was worried that she might do this to the 'wrong' man.

How do you explain something like this to people you don't really know very well? I'm sure they had no idea, and I wasn't prepared to say anything... if their instincts didn't tell them that this was not something they should encourage...

It's a sad state of affairs, not all men are predators but the stupidity of some parents is mind-boggling.

My EX simply stopped accepting the invites - he didn't want to encourage the girl. Hopefully, she grew out of this habit.

For much of the time Savile was active, society in general had no idea of the extensive and insidious nature of child sex abuse, nor how much it damaged the child.

In the early 1980s a small boy was abducted from a fair in our local town. Shortly after I was socialising with a policeman, who commneted to me that you need to protect boys under 11 and girls over 11 and I, having children those sexes and those ages, had no reason to query his comments.

However I had awlays been very explicit with my children that if anyone did anything they were not comfortable with, even if it was one of their grandfathers, or close family friends, and I had no reason whatever to suspect anyone, they were to tell me.

But even today, a lot depends on the behaviour and attitudes within the family to sexual matters. My children have given me feedback as adults that my openess and willingness to discuss anything about sex and relattionships meant that they were quite happy to discuss anything with me and wouldn't have thought twice about telling me had anyone behaved inappropriately with them. They also didn't realise until they were adults that other parents weren't like that.

I was a juror in a historic sexual abuse case. The level of abuse had been at a very superficial level and only happened once, but, without revealing any secrets of the jury discussions, what became very clear to me was that the grown woman making the accusations had, as a child, not felt able to tell her parents what had happened and that later as a teenager, her parents had never queried or tried to discuss with her, behaviour patterns that would have rung alarm bells with me and had me talking to my child to try to understand what was happening/had happened. When there is discomfort in the home about talking about sexual matters children will fear telling their parents.

The trouble is those sort of creeps look for vulnerable isolated kids where the parents might be absent or too busy to notice. I think they choose their victims very carefully. As a child I managed to escape a man who started kissing me and I never told my mum, ever. I just felt sick and got on the nearest bus to escape. I was about 12 or 13, he would have been mid 30s or so.

He was a slippery as an eel with interviews, like you say, making creepy comments and then either denying them or shutting them down.

I think one of the most important things children should be taught is never to keep it a secret. If something happens then scream and shout and let it all out. With DNA today it would be easy to prove if the alarm was raised immediately.

It was evident from the programme last night that so many people knew what Savile was up to but if they did mention it nobody did anything.

The journalist who interviewed him said it was like Savile had been dropping big hints about what he was up to but at the same time denying it.

We have to do much more than encouraging children to follow their gut instincts Sago. I take your point about Mr Tickle ‘uncle’ - children should never be instructed to hug or kiss anyone.
Adults need to understand children’s boundaries must be respected

We have to allow children to follow their gut instincts.

As a child I had an “Uncle”, no relation just a family friend, he always insisted I sit on his knee, he would tickle me and I hated it, he always wanted me to kiss him goodbye, I once refused and then got a real telling off from my parents.

I now realise uncle Frank was definitely wrong but my stupid parents had no inkling.

Exactly BlueBelle.

Not only children stay silent many adults do to for years and years when I was working with adults abused as children I found they very often broke their silence when their children were the age they were when abused

Chestnut, that’s the thing that stays with me from my working life. The silence children keep. It’s often said it’s easier for children to speak now but I’m unconvinced.

Savile was such a cunning operator, just like a wild predator, isolating the vulnerable young animal from the herd and then pouncing. He must have been an expert to get away with that right under people's noses, possibly hundreds of times. It beggars belief how no-one caught him out in all that time. And none of the children ran back screaming and crying, they just went very, very quiet. If only they had screamed out what happened, but of course they daren't.

I don't blame the parents in this situation. The little boy in the drama (who appeared as a grown man too - as himself, not an actor) went to Jim'll Fix It with a pack of cub scouts. How much safer could you expect that to be? Another girl (again she appeared as herself to corroborate the portrayal) was in church when he abused her week after week. Again, you'd reasonably expect children to be safe there. Young teens on TOTP, girls from the home getting lifts from him, patients on children's wards - none of these people were abused because their parents were careless. They were let down by the adults who hadn't acted on complaints, and created the conditions in which Savile could operate.

As you say, Iam, the assaults happened away from the parents.

When one of my daughters was first term year 7, high school, she invited a friend to come after school and stay for tea. (We are north west, it’s tea between 5 and 6pm). I was working late, so their dad was home to greet and feed.
I got home to find the friend’s mother had arrived half an hour after the children. She was in the kitchen / dining room with my husband and the children.
We all liked each other, we’re relieved our girls were making friends in their huge new schools. Agreed it was so hard, not knowing other parents as we had at primary school.
We all laughed when she agreed, yes, she’d come to check us out. It’s what parents do isn’t it.
Sadly, Seville’s victims were usually away from parents/carers. He was a wicked and cunning abuser

fiorentina51

Many years ago, when collecting my then 3 Yr old daughter from playgroup I got into conversation with the father of a girl she was friendly with.
Both girls joined us at the end if the session and the father looked at my daughter and said how pretty she was.
He then invited her to come back with himself and his daughter for lunch and playtime.
I felt there was something odd and said no.
13 years later he was jailed for abuse of his daughter and she later committed suicide.

How absolutely awful.

Good on you for relying on your instinct. I think as mothers, parents, we have to regardless of what other people think about the decisions we take or how offended the particular person might be.

The stakes are too high.

Well that’s a dreadful story!

Many years ago, when collecting my then 3 Yr old daughter from playgroup I got into conversation with the father of a girl she was friendly with.
Both girls joined us at the end if the session and the father looked at my daughter and said how pretty she was.
He then invited her to come back with himself and his daughter for lunch and playtime.
I felt there was something odd and said no.
13 years later he was jailed for abuse of his daughter and she later committed suicide.

PollyMay

Anniebach

In the 50’s I was in the school choir, we were to perform in the
town hall, I lived 4 miles from the town, bus strike, couldn’t
take part , choir master said he would bring those affected home in his car, my father said NO, nothing ever suspicious about the man but my father explained to me why he chose NO.

Why did he “choose NO” if there was nothing suspicious about the man? Should women / girls never trust any men?

If they don't know the man - maybe it's a good idea.

I posed the question to my OH just now and asked him how he'd feel under the circumstances. He said that any man who had a streak of sensitivity would understand that it's not personal - and any man who had daughters (he has) would also understand why it was necessary to be over-cautious.

It's not nice, but that's the world we live in. As Galaxy said - men who are intent on abuse tend not to make it obvious, so bearing in mind what can happen, it's best to err on the side of caution.

There isnt usually anything suspicious. That's the point. Abusive people tend not to wear a sign.

Anniebach

In the 50’s I was in the school choir, we were to perform in the
town hall, I lived 4 miles from the town, bus strike, couldn’t
take part , choir master said he would bring those affected home in his car, my father said NO, nothing ever suspicious about the man but my father explained to me why he chose NO.

Why did he “choose NO” if there was nothing suspicious about the man? Should women / girls never trust any men?

Agreed, Iam. Joined up thinking is what's necessary, and at the risk of repeating myself once too often - there is no excuse for not believing complainants or for inaction.

We also need a national police data base that connects allegations in different police areas. One of the savile problems was individual complainants were seen in isolation
More importantly societal change that begins to accept child sexual abuse is prevalent. That most offenders look like the rest of us, they’re professionals, lawyers, vicars, teachers, social workers, truck drivers, plumbers, electricians, some are unemployed drunks or drug users. They’re ordinary men who walk among us
When someone like savile or brand hides in plain sight, we should know enough now to call them out. We see you

I think the lesson is 'don't cover up wrongdoing'. The next 'Savile' will be in a different situation, so I don't think we learn direct lessons about how to prevent repetitions from happening. But if the law changes so that anyone shown to have known about accusations but not acted on them can be charged and held accountable, or that large institutions must have policies to ensure that after any accusation is made files must be kept and added to if appropriate, and if a dossier builds up action must be taken, then future generations of women and children will be less likely to suffer in the same way.

Toetoe Let's hope the future generations learn from this, parents and growing children
That is why it is important to show this. Not everyone will watch a documentary but might watch a drama. That way the story reaches more people over the years. Don't forget once this is made it will be shown for many years to come, and children of today will eventually see it. That is a good thing. I guess the lesson to be learnt is 'don't trust anyone' which is very sad but it's better to be safe than sorry.

I'm not sure whether the drama touched on this, but there were a lot of illegal substances -drugs- being passed around too by these DJs. The mother of the dancer I know confronted her daughter over this, and she did tell her mum that much.

In the 50’s I was in the school choir, we were to perform in the
town hall, I lived 4 miles from the town, bus strike, couldn’t
take part , choir master said he would bring those affected home in his car, my father said NO, nothing ever suspicious about the man but my father explained to me why he chose NO.