Churchill's Secret Apartheid

pascal30

Iam64

I can’t see “Churchill’s Apartheid’ as a correct description of what happened in WW2. It seems like another attack on the man who faults and all, led our country during a very dark time. In saying this, im in no way supporting racism and I’m aware of Churchill’s chequered history in that regard.

In the mid-late 1950’s We lived near a US airbase in a small Lancashire village. I had never seen a black person until I saw the black GI’s walking around. They were always in pairs and never with white GI’s.

The legacy of slavery is still prevalent in America. I’m not surprised Churchill didn’t see challenging the racism as his main priority in WW2. I don’t mean to offend and of course, I don’t support the American approach

I don't agree with this.. if black people were prepared to give up their lives to fight with Britain, I think they should have been a priority.. to ensure equal and fair treatment with their and our soldiers..

American attitudes to race couldn’t possibly have been tackled by Churchill, or indeed anyone else during ww2.

The black, brown/irish/other groups who fought alongside white British armed services served in the same units as the majority (white British). That’s not to suggest racism wasn’t present.
A poster earlier refers to the battle of Bamber bridge, where locals opposed the American dictat that their black servicemen ciukdnt drink alongside whites. It’s a few miles away from me - proud Lancashire woman here

Clawdy

Churchill said white people were " a stronger race, a higher grade race". Sounds pretty racist to me.

To be entirely fair, he was of another era altogether and such attitudes were not unusual at the time.

I didn't watch the program but reading the thread reminded me of the 'Battle of Bamber Bridge' in Lancashire - where ordinary British people defied a colour bar order to keep black GIs out and posted signs on their pub doors saying 'Black Troops only'. The same thing happened all over Britain - I suspect more because British people don't like being told what to do than a lack of racism.

Nylons
Autocorrect does not know best.

I don't think the American troops stationed over here were universally popular, particularly amongst British servicemen.

They arrived with their nylon, chewing gum, candy - what was the saying?
"Over-paid, over-sexed and over here".

Popular with some young women, probably, and I remember my brother telling me of when he went home from school with a pocket full of chewing gum from servicemen throwing packets out of the window of the place where they were stationed in town. My mother was very cross, apparently, and told him not to go near there!

But you didn’t Eazybee so hardly a silly comment.In any case soldiers of any colour going into pubs when they’re on duty wouldn’t be tolerated.If drinks were brought out into the street for them that may have been different, who knows? Maybe alcohol on duty was a no no.
Of course there was much racism around in the 1940’s and Americans much worse than here but just saying, in the case you mention it may not have been.

Yes Nannarrose, that was what my Aunt understood. The past informs the future.

Oreo, what a silly comment.
The work, resurrecting telegraph poles and reconnecting the cables, as well as clearing the road of debris, had been completed before the drinks were offered..
Clearly, I should have spelt that out.

Although it does look a bit like Welsh

Or as my grandson would say, ‘You fallen asleep on the keyboard again, Granny?’ 😂

Doodledog

Clawdy

Churchill said white people were " a stronger race, a higher grade race". Sounds pretty racist to me.

He was racist. And sexist, classist and more.

Whether that was normal for the day doesn't change that, although it probably explains it.

In my eyes it excuses it. We don't think less of Shakespeare because he believed the sun orbited the earth. That was the knowledge in his time. There will be awful things that we are doing in good faith now, that later generations will blame us for. There were great men & women who challenged the belief in the inferiority of non-caucasian races. Churchill was a great man in other ways. He was born in 1874 when those beliefs were mainstream.

Oreo

eazybee

My great-aunt ran a pub in Northamptonshire during the war. Following an air -raid some black American soldiers stationed nearby were sent to clear up the mess and she invited them into her pub for a drink. They were standing around the bar talking to her when their white sergeant arrived for a drink; while she was pouring it he looked at the soldiers, pointed and said in tones of utter contempt,"You,Out." and they all walked out immediately. She knew enough about black /white American relations not to call them back, so she simply said to the Sergeant, " I decide who drinks in my pub."You. Out Too,"
Though small, she was formidable, and he went.

In this particular case it could be that he was just being a sergeant! They were sent to clear up a mess not stand around drinking and gassing in pubs.😁

Possibly!

"Don't you know there's a war on, lads?"

eazybee

My great-aunt ran a pub in Northamptonshire during the war. Following an air -raid some black American soldiers stationed nearby were sent to clear up the mess and she invited them into her pub for a drink. They were standing around the bar talking to her when their white sergeant arrived for a drink; while she was pouring it he looked at the soldiers, pointed and said in tones of utter contempt,"You,Out." and they all walked out immediately. She knew enough about black /white American relations not to call them back, so she simply said to the Sergeant, " I decide who drinks in my pub."You. Out Too,"
Though small, she was formidable, and he went.

In this particular case it could be that he was just being a sergeant! They were sent to clear up a mess not stand around drinking and gassing in pubs.😁

merlotgran

Allira

Btpritidh British

😂😂😂 I was beginning to wonder which part of the Empire they came from.

I can't even pronounce it!

Although it does look a bit like Welsh 😀

eazybee What a great woman!!

Just watching it on Catch Up.

Cross posted so hadn't read easybee's story.

nanna8

The past is another country, as they say. Why stir this up now? Just to provoke us, or what ?

Because considering these things helps us to understand. Like some posters, I was brought up in an area where there was a strong American presence.
I was having this conversation only last week with my uncle (age 90)
My father 'stood up' for black (USAF & GB) servicemen during WW2. He had the attitude that he was doing National Service - what was the worst that could happen to him? He had a job waiting when he was demobbed - where his skills and personal integrity were well known.
My uncle was younger, and dealt with prejudicial attitudes after WW2, among the Americans who frequented pubs and clubs. He recalls that when he and his friends tried to intervene, the Black servicemen would say 'Don't - we'll get it worse when we get back to base if you do'. It still sits uncomfortably with him after all these years.

Being brought up in a family where these things were talked about has helped to form my own attitude to life. We can learn from the past.

My great-aunt ran a pub in Northamptonshire during the war. Following an air -raid some black American soldiers stationed nearby were sent to clear up the mess and she invited them into her pub for a drink. They were standing around the bar talking to her when their white sergeant arrived for a drink; while she was pouring it he looked at the soldiers, pointed and said in tones of utter contempt,"You,Out." and they all walked out immediately. She knew enough about black /white American relations not to call them back, so she simply said to the Sergeant, " I decide who drinks in my pub."You. Out Too,"
Though small, she was formidable, and he went.

Allira

Btpritidh British

😂😂😂 I was beginning to wonder which part of the Empire they came from.

Iam64

I can’t see “Churchill’s Apartheid’ as a correct description of what happened in WW2. It seems like another attack on the man who faults and all, led our country during a very dark time. In saying this, im in no way supporting racism and I’m aware of Churchill’s chequered history in that regard.

In the mid-late 1950’s We lived near a US airbase in a small Lancashire village. I had never seen a black person until I saw the black GI’s walking around. They were always in pairs and never with white GI’s.

The legacy of slavery is still prevalent in America. I’m not surprised Churchill didn’t see challenging the racism as his main priority in WW2. I don’t mean to offend and of course, I don’t support the American approach

I don't agree with this.. if black people were prepared to give up their lives to fight with Britain, I think they should have been a priority.. to ensure equal and fair treatment with their and our soldiers..

Btpritidh British

nanna8

The past is another country, as they say. Why stir this up now? Just to provoke us, or what ?

The woke agenda?

If Churchill and the top brass had been as racist as some claim, Btpritidh Forces would have been segregated as the Americans were.

In order to overcome the evil of Hitler and his Nazis, presumably some pragmatism had to be applied - no good arguing with your ally when you had a common enemy to defeat.

It was also their total defeat on the Russian front, but that's another part of the story.

Without Britain as a platform to liberate Europe, the Nazis could still be in power today, it was our tenacity after Dunkirk that enabled WW2 to be won.

I remember seeing an American archive film from WWII aimed at GIs who were going to be stationed in UK.
The film was narrated by actor Burgess Meredith. Among other advice, was that soldiers should not be surprised that British black soldiers served in the same regiments as the white soldiers and mixed freely. They were warned that might find themselves standing next to a black soldier in a pub or at a dance.

What makes you think I don't realise that? I'd be interested to know.

Nobody is perfect, and (to use a cliche) good people do bad things, and bad people do good ones.

I can't see the point of sanctifying people because of the good things they did. History is about getting the whole picture.