Groomed. A National scandal Ch 4 - Wed 30 April 9 pm

The sheer scale of the numbers (tens of thousands) and the fact it’s still going on makes it so shocking that it’s not a top government priority. It’s about the child victims being protected and getting justice. There is evidence in statements by police and social workers of what is obvious, the children were viewed with same derogatory attitudes as ‘less than’ and responsible for their abuse as the perpetrators and yet officials with such attitudes have never been held accountable. As a child cannot legally be a protitute, it should be an offence to falsely denigrate children in this way. The two tier justice is appalling and these poor, vulnerable children get the worst of it. As a teacher, I think schools could do more to educate children about grooming and to report any instances. They should also have senior staff and a community policeman at the gates of every secondary school at home time . Some do. And yes we do have the resources to make an extra effort to keep the children in our care safe. Any caring teacher would do that. The form teachers could also have circle times for pupils to share experiences and ask them if they feel safe on the way to and from school. Schools could also educate and support parents better on this. The documentary could be shown but in some areas there would need to be community liaison as not all parents accept the victims version and side with perpetrators. However, having small group parent discussions would be valuable so everyone feels heard and parameters for raising children can be agreed. Surely if this was a top government priority a high profile awareness programme could be rolled out across all the agencies in the country and be monitored for effectiveness.

Wyllow3, I sat through one case where an 11 year old made allegations. At the time she reported, she was an incredibly skinny, anxious, frightened little girl. Two years later it came to court, she had grown tall, gained weight, been well cared for in l.a placement so nothing ‘fancy’. We advised her to out her hair in a pony tail and wear school uniform. Like many 13 year olds she could look older.
Her evidence was superbly delivered. The judges summing up pointed out the burden of proof rests with the prosecution to prove the defendants guilt beyond reasonable doubt . Not Guilty finding. The police officer involved hugged the child, saying I blame myself for this , I know without corroboration, this is likely the result. I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have put you through thud when we all know you’re telling the truth.
It’s complex work. Takes a toll on everyone.

Iam64

One of the many problems is getting enough evidence to prosecute. It remains the case that in rape/child sexual abuse trials the judge warns the jury of the dangers in convicting o. The unsubstantiated word of the victim. No wonder prosecutions are rare, convictions rarer

It really struck me how hard to get convictions from what you've said.

Iam64, well said in both your posts.

A priority has to be preventing young girls from becoming victims in the first place. In the major investigations it was the case that the same poor girls went out to meet the same men again and again, reported what had happened to them but would not name the men. This is how 'victim blaming arose'.

We need more and better youth services. More bobbies on the beat and outside schools at the end of the day. More help to hold struggling families together, greater encouragement of parental responsibility and giving teenagers a sense of self worth. All that would accomplish more than a public enquiry but it too would take time.

One of the many problems is getting enough evidence to prosecute. It remains the case that in rape/child sexual abuse trials the judge warns the jury of the dangers in convicting o. The unsubstantiated word of the victim. No wonder prosecutions are rare, convictions rarer

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23087686

Iam did say "some", don't forget the many who condemned, or indeed Nazir Afzal. but of course unforgivable, but not to tar all with same brush.

Iam64

The documentary was good. The three young women brave enough to speak gave such honest, moving testimonies.

Primrose, I can only speak for staff at the two children’s homes I knew well in the late 90’s then another in about 2010. They did not turn any blind eyes. They discussed their high level of concerns with senior managers. They reported girls missing for days, returning in dreadful states, reporting they’d been taken to several towns and sexually abused by multiple men, given drugs and alcohol etc. Lack of resources and the complexity in prosecuting men who claimed the girls were willing participants as they always returned.
I’m not defending any of this. My view in 1998 when I first came across it was it needed resourcing with experienced detectives, social workers and psychologists.

One of the worst things from last nights documentary was the young woman who was convicted sex offender after taking a younger friend to a ‘party’. The same happened to one of the girls in Three Girls the Rochdale drama. The other thing that will stay with me is the ‘fight back’ from some in the Muslim Pakistani community where there’s belief these girls are lying for compensation. Very like the accusations against Victoria Giuffre and others.

Maggie Oliver was impressive in this documentary. It’s important we don’t forget all the other women (and it was largely women) raising this with little effect.

We don’t need a national inquiry, we need the Jay recommendations implemented. We need resources put into investigating, prosecuting, prevention and therapeutic support for the victims

That was shocking indeed about the fight back from Muslim Pakistani families who believe those poor girls were at fault not their men! I nearly threw something at the TV when one of the convicted rapists actually rang from inside prison.

How brave were those women to come forward with their horrific stories. Childhoods taken away from them.

The documentary was good. The three young women brave enough to speak gave such honest, moving testimonies.

Primrose, I can only speak for staff at the two children’s homes I knew well in the late 90’s then another in about 2010. They did not turn any blind eyes. They discussed their high level of concerns with senior managers. They reported girls missing for days, returning in dreadful states, reporting they’d been taken to several towns and sexually abused by multiple men, given drugs and alcohol etc. Lack of resources and the complexity in prosecuting men who claimed the girls were willing participants as they always returned.
I’m not defending any of this. My view in 1998 when I first came across it was it needed resourcing with experienced detectives, social workers and psychologists.

One of the worst things from last nights documentary was the young woman who was convicted sex offender after taking a younger friend to a ‘party’. The same happened to one of the girls in Three Girls the Rochdale drama. The other thing that will stay with me is the ‘fight back’ from some in the Muslim Pakistani community where there’s belief these girls are lying for compensation. Very like the accusations against Victoria Giuffre and others.

Maggie Oliver was impressive in this documentary. It’s important we don’t forget all the other women (and it was largely women) raising this with little effect.

We don’t need a national inquiry, we need the Jay recommendations implemented. We need resources put into investigating, prosecuting, prevention and therapeutic support for the victims

In 2003/4 our daughter witnessed this, her 1st floor flat overlooked an Asian take away.

Young girls would arrive followed by much older men.

Our daughter and flatmates reported this, Police did nothing, they then emailed the local MP and copied in the Police chief.

They eventually set up surveillance in our daughter’s flat.

In the period of time the cameras were installed, the ringleader actually turned up in his black Range Rover with young girls, there was a lot of activity and our daughter and friends were sure it would lead to arrests and prosecution.

No, Police said there was not enough evidence.

About 5 years ago our daughter spoke to a BBC researcher and provided the email trail.

Nothing.

Katie Hopkins however interviewed her on the radio and took great interest in her story.

Sadly it’s still happening today.

The documentary was excellent, how brave of the young women to speak out.

I wept for them.

Apologies galore from Police but it’s still going on.

Truly shocking how staff at children’s homes turned a blind eye to Pakistani men hanging around outside and regularly taking young girls away in their cars or taxis. If anyone reported this, the Police took no notice.

Girls of 14 reporting being vaginally and anally raped by two men at the same time. Other girls being plied with drink or injected with heroin.

The overwhelming number of these rapists were British Pakistani according to the girls and the Police.

Norway seems to support good public services .
It invests in early years, subsidises high quality childcare . I can imagine a similar scheme working I a village or small suburb that started life as a village
Less so perhaps in the areas these girls live in

Thank you Primrose53 for highlighting this program.

We are rather in the dark regarding this case without knowing the age of the child and all the particular risk factors at play - family, friendships, whether the child frequently goes missing but returns.... as well as the levels of policing in the specialist teams who work with complex cases and have to liase with SSD in that area on that day.

I do hope we'll hear the end of the story but doubt it in this situation.

I think the Norwegian example sounds something worthwhile and worth consideration.

It's always amazing how varying police forces can find the man power and the time to visit people, not those inciting hatred, but the more minor issue of pissing some other person/s off, in one case "you haven't broken the law but x is upset". Soft options. I suppose we don't know what happened on the day but a missing child, is a serious matter.

I do think police "care", ^I simply think there aren't enough, especially enough with particular skills of working on the community/social care/mental health knowledge liaison.

Cut backs in various sorts of community care has thrown problems back on the police.

Of course I can't know and wouldn't "excuse" or even attempt to explain the lack of action on the situation described above, although it would be very valuable as a pointer to find out what other demands were made on available time and resources over those 2 days. Btw - how old was the child?

What a wonderful example, Dickens.

fancythat

It is not hard to understand why there are vigilantes sometimes.

Inevitably, that is what happens. But, it is not the answer.

When I lived in Norway, my boss told me there was a problem around the area he lived in where young girls (and sometimes boys) were out late at night, with or without their parents' approval / knowledge - not always from 'broken' homes either, just young teens exploring their adult 'freedoms' and who were inevitably at risk.

My boss (who had two daughters) together with other concerned neighbours formed a 'night watch' - but in co-operation with the local police - they just walked around the neighbourhood keeping an eye on what these teens were doing, and reporting anything 'concerning' to the police. Their very presence I think probably acted sometimes as a deterrent to would be sexual predators. Mothers and fathers walking around in a group around the housing estate (an estate built on a mountain) late at night on a rota system.

But, they were not vigilantes.

Every country has such problems.

It is not hard to understand why there are vigilantes sometimes.

Utterly depressing, after everything, all the programmes, discussions, articles and nothing has changed, well only in the fact that it appears to be worse. Can the powers that be not understand the disillusionment that sets in when palpable anger at the lack of action is a trigger for civil unrest. It's almost as if the police have a continued disinterest in tackling this ongoing problem, and if they haven't responded to a child missing for 2 days, why hasn't a senior officer stepped in?

Galaxy

Blaming the children is part of the process, it is part of the abuse and I guess how the men 'justify' it to themselves.
I know it seems a small thing but I do think we should think about the language we as a society use, we see the term child prostitute used or child porn, you can't be a child prostitute, it is abuse and should be named as such. There is something about the term grooming gang that sits uncomfortably with me as well, I know it is used to explain what happens but to me it seems to minimise the crime.

There is something about the term grooming gang that sits uncomfortably with me as well...

And me Galaxy.

The very word "grooming" conjures images of cats washing themselves or women sitting in front of mirrors brushing their hair...

These men are not 'groomers' they are inadequate predatory misogynist sexual perverts preying on vulnerable girls and women. And doing what weak-minded perverts have done since the beginning of time, blaming their victims for their own inadequacy and perversion.

As I mentioned upthread. It’s no surprise it’s worse

*Anna Hall on radio 4.
If you don’t listen I’d point out that a manager of a care home called her this morning to say that a child went missing from the home 2? Days ago.
She reported it to the police and *the police have not responded*😡
Anna also told woman’s hour that numerous people have told her that *the situation now is worse than it’s ever been 🤬

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm

I do think that the cultural issue cannot be overlooked.

^Blaming the children is part of the process, it is part of the abuse and I guess how the men 'justify' it to themselves.
I know it seems a small thing but I do think we should think about the language we as a society use, we see the term child prostitute used or child porn, you can't be a child prostitute, it is abuse and should be named as such^

I agree

To reply to Wyllow3s post

On a small level, people should change the words of others if they personally hear them.

med level - sites like this and other online sites - again change the words.

In an ideal world all parents and guardians would be teaching the right from wrong in all of this.
But we all know that does not always happen.
And not all children obey their parents either.

I also think Christians can play their part in this. And pray about the whole thing.