Channel 4 9pm Keir Starmer. where did it all go wrong?

Macaydia

NHS on its knees means it is not strong enough to continue operating unless it gets some sort of bail.out / on verge of collapse.

But that is not what 'on its knees' means . Someone scrubbing a floor could be on his knees, as could someone praying. On its knees means being in a kneeling position - it has nothing to do with being not strong enough to continue without a bailout. Nothing. The phrase is a metaphor (which I fully understand) but my point, for the umpteenth time, is that it is unoriginal and simply repeated by those who have read or heard it, and it leaves a lot of scope for interpretation. It is not a precise (or even a nuanced) term. It is meaningless in the context of the NHS, and the use of such terms reduces the chances of people discussing the topic with precision or nuance, and allows politicians and journalists to waffle on and say nothing much.

I thought you said upthread that you understood my ;point Oreo. Was that not the case?

Macaydia

Doodledog

Oh. I've heard it used to mean someone is going to be killed. Or that they will get into trouble with their parents, but it means 'probably won't get back in the next general election'? We live and learn.

What about 'fallen off a cliff'? Or 'thrown under the bus'?

Fallen on a cliff means failed.

Thrown under a bus means his colleages have betrayed him

So why not say 'failed' and 'betrayed by his colleagues'? That would be speaking English, not trotting out soundbites.

Primrose53

Doodledog

'In crisis', 'is toast', 'fallen off a cliff', 'on its knees', 'rabbit in the headlights' - as long as people talk like that nobody will say anything meaningful, so discussion will become impossible.

What about the meaningless expressions “smash the gangs” and “stop the boats”?

What about them? If you have an opinion, why not share it?

He has totally changed the Labour Party, moving it to the right.
He lied to become Labour leader
He lied to become PM
He said if you don't like what the Labour Party is now, leave
He has allowed US bombers to use RAF Fairford without discussing it in Parliament
"Starmer’s interview on LBC a few days earlier, in which he said Israel “has the right” to withhold power and water from Gaza"
www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/20/labour-deeply-divided-over-starmers-line-on-israel-hamas-war

I agree with Oreo that if Labour want to win the next election (not just Tories lose it as in 2024), he will be replaced

Thanks Macaydia for restoring my sense of sanity😄I knew that most people understand exactly what those expressions meant.
And understand them in the same way too.

NHS on its knees means it is not strong enough to continue operating unless it gets some sort of bail.out / on verge of collapse.

Doodledog

Oh. I've heard it used to mean someone is going to be killed. Or that they will get into trouble with their parents, but it means 'probably won't get back in the next general election'? We live and learn.

What about 'fallen off a cliff'? Or 'thrown under the bus'?

Fallen on a cliff means failed.

Thrown under a bus means his colleages have betrayed him

Primrose Stop The Boats and Smash The Gangs are also totally meaningless expressions UNLESS the why and how is also outlined!

Doodledog

What does being 'toast' mean?

toast is slang for ruined

Doodledog

'In crisis', 'is toast', 'fallen off a cliff', 'on its knees', 'rabbit in the headlights' - as long as people talk like that nobody will say anything meaningful, so discussion will become impossible.

What about the meaningless expressions “smash the gangs” and “stop the boats”?

Luckygirl3

What a loaded programme title ... balanced journalism? ... I think not.

Agreed Luckygirl!

Oreo

My question was a genuine one, I see your point just fine but those expressions do mean something which most people understand.

I’m not sure you have understood though. Toast is grilled bread. Off a cliff is just what it says, and under a bus is the chassis (probably).

As metaphors they mean different things to different people. My point was that most don’t understand them in the same way, which is my objection. ‘The economy has fallen off a cliff’ doesn’t mean a thing. It is a vague statement that disapproves of ‘something’, but it doesn’t mean anything that can be discussed. Is it talking about inflation? GDP? The pound against the dollar? To you it might be one, and to me another.

Just like ‘the NHS is on its knees’ - vague, critical but meaningless.

What a loaded programme title ... balanced journalism? ... I think not.

My question was a genuine one, I see your point just fine but those expressions do mean something which most people understand.

Do you genuinely not know what those expressions mean, or simply dislike them?
I don’t think they mean anything, if not used literally. Your interpretation may well be different from mine, and mine from someone else’s. It’s not about disliking the expressions themselves, but the way people are fed them by the media and repeat them, as though they are making a political point, when in fact they are saying nothing meaningful.

Did you genuinely misunderstand my point, or do you just dislike it?

He won’t be there for longer than another year.

Iam64

I share Cossy’s view on where things are with KS and the Labour Party. DAR summarises it.
Doodledog is spot on about the terms bandied about , meaningless and designed to stifle debate.

The left in the party always said they’d support Starmer to win the election, then mobilise to get a new leader. He’s still there. His comms and willingness to properly engage abd negotiate with back benchers has caused real problems - that can’t be denied. I believe he shouldn’t have blocked Andy Burnham.
Despite this we have a better govt than in a long time. Starmer excellent on international affairs

👍👍👏👏

Oreo

Starmer will be replaced long before the next GE.

In your opinion? Or do you have a crystal ball?

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your guesswork, but currently, that’s all it is.

Starmer will be replaced long before the next GE.

Doodledog

Oh. I've heard it used to mean someone is going to be killed. Or that they will get into trouble with their parents, but it means 'probably won't get back in the next general election'? We live and learn.

What about 'fallen off a cliff'? Or 'thrown under the bus'?

Do you genuinely not know what those expressions mean, or simply dislike them?

I share Cossy’s view on where things are with KS and the Labour Party. DAR summarises it.
Doodledog is spot on about the terms bandied about , meaningless and designed to stifle debate.

The left in the party always said they’d support Starmer to win the election, then mobilise to get a new leader. He’s still there. His comms and willingness to properly engage abd negotiate with back benchers has caused real problems - that can’t be denied. I believe he shouldn’t have blocked Andy Burnham.
Despite this we have a better govt than in a long time. Starmer excellent on international affairs

Doodledog

Oh. I've heard it used to mean someone is going to be killed. Or that they will get into trouble with their parents, but it means 'probably won't get back in the next general election'? We live and learn.

What about 'fallen off a cliff'? Or 'thrown under the bus'?

Yes, live & learn 👍🏻

Doodledog

'In crisis', 'is toast', 'fallen off a cliff', 'on its knees', 'rabbit in the headlights' - as long as people talk like that nobody will say anything meaningful, so discussion will become impossible.

Sadly, you're right.

Oh. I've heard it used to mean someone is going to be killed. Or that they will get into trouble with their parents, but it means 'probably won't get back in the next general election'? We live and learn.

What about 'fallen off a cliff'? Or 'thrown under the bus'?

Doodledog

'In crisis', 'is toast', 'fallen off a cliff', 'on its knees', 'rabbit in the headlights' - as long as people talk like that nobody will say anything meaningful, so discussion will become impossible.

Means ‘done for’ probably won’t get back in the next general election.