In my day things were done in order.

No need to say sorry Phoenix.We've all done it. Please don't be upset.Come on girl, we're Net Grans not the bad assed Net Mums.

*Granzilla" I do apologise, I have limited time here, and tend to "scan read". No excuse I know, so sorry again!

em - I think you're right about adoption. When I was growing up, it was quite common for children to be adopted, even if there were other "natural" children in the family. It was seen as a positive thing, as i recall. I think the difference between then and now is that now we seem to be far more "entitled" as a society, and that rights are given preferentially to birth parents, regardless of ability to raise a happy child. There does seem to be a trend, perpetuated by the media, towards viewing the birth mother as the "real" one, even though adoptive parents are legal parents. I think this is really sad, and undermines the role that adoptive parents play in society.

I have seen childless people desperate for children and unable to concieve or adopt, and I have seen a friend of mine find her "birth" mother only to be rejected.

To make sure that everything was financially safe and that each of the children would receive equally after our deaths (although 2 are not DH's), we made a will. This was all done correctly at the solicitor's. DH and I just didn't want to get married. We saw no point. I still see no point. harrigran describes this as being 'more like a business arrangement. If love can be included in a business arrangement, then that's what we have! 'One bite at the cherry' of marriage was definitely enough for us both. I ran away very easily from my 'legalised' marriage. I ran (literally) very fast indeed. It was as easy as that.

he he he!

They won't let you.

I like Bagitha so much I'm tempted to change my name!

(that's something to do with my poem. I can't remember what)

DON'T CALL ME OLD BEAN! grrrr!

Bagitha Turkey.

You have a valid argument there, harri, but until divorce became easier, marriage often trapped women too.

Lawyers will do pretty much anything (legal) for you so long as you pay them. You stick to your views, jangs old bean. I'm open to convincing argument from the opposing side and have often changed my view based on evidence (or lack of it), reasoning and rationality. I intend to carry on like that.

Marriage was created to protect the woman and children surely, the way to protect yourself outside of marriage is to draw up legal documents .. more like a business arrangement. I see where you are coming from jangly

But Baggy, you're more likely to get the money side of things properly sorted if you are married and can go through a solicitors.

Or perhaps you can do that anyway, married or not.

Still, I got me views and I'm sticking to 'em.

There's nothing illegal about living together as a couple. So what do you mean by legalised marriage? Of course, I do know what you mean really. The only thing that makes it more difficult to split up if you have a marriage certificate is the legal aspect, which can cost a lot of money. Even that doesn't stop people divorcing. Looks like a good argument not to get married to me!

I agree with jangly that the best thing is for children to have a loving and commited family. We only disagree about what counts as commited. jangs thinks a legal document is necessary (or at least, better); bags thinks those pieces of paper are just pieces of paper which help to make lawyers rich.

Look at it another way, Jangly. A legalized marriage is less easy to escape from.

I think a legalized marriage is less easy to run away from than when a couple is just living together. It doesn't have to be a church wedding. Religion needn't come into it.

It is better for the children. I'm convinced of the fact.

Baggy said:
And young girls/women who find themselves alone and in a fix should be helped because that's the good and civilised thing to do in a good and civilised society.

Yes, I agree completely - but that is the attitude that was sadly missing in my youth. I was lucky - I never got pregnant while single - mainly because I believed in taking precautions and NEVER took a risk. I think this put me in the bad girl category - it was the 'good' girls who got pregnant because they didn't plan anything!!

I know my in laws-to-be were utterly horrified just after we told them we were getting married. It seemed to them to be in a rush, and they asked if I was pregnant. I said "No, not a chance, I'm on the pill" Well, the shocked silence and looks of horror!! My husband explained to me later that they were a bit old fashioned, and my being on the pill seemed to them to be the height of modern decadence.

Of course, I had another sin marked up against me. We are all from Yorkshire, but when I went to meet the in laws I'd just got back from a 4 month translating job in Vienna, and having spoken nothing but German for all that time, my Yorkshire accent was almost gone. It came back after a few weeks, but the damage was done. Posh and naughty - unforgivable!

I think the message from this thread has been that there isn't a regimented ideal. What works well for people is good. What doesn't work is not good. "Rules" that so-called higher powers (ha!) try to impose on people can be disregarded nowadays. Thank goodness for that. On another thread some of us argued that being "married" is not about having a marriage certificate; it's about a commitment to bring up kids together. Plenty of people get "married" in the official sense and then split up and plenty of people bring up their kids in a perfectly satisfactory manner without ever having had a "marriage" certificate. Logical conclusion: we don't need rules imposed by "higher powers". We can manage without.

I've nothing against "official" marriage. I'm married myself. But I've nothing against unofficial marriage either. And young girls/women who find themselves alone and in a fix should be helped because that's the good and civilised thing to do in a good and civilised society.

I think that what granzilla said in her original post was probably the norm in those days. Of course, it didn't work out like that for everyone but it was probably what the majority strived for.

Perhps it describes an ideal world.

Nothing wrong with ideal worlds, or striving for them.

Phoenix, if you'd read on and seen the whole text,you would have seen that It was tongue in cheek and was followed up by a 'Did I have rose tinted glasses'.

Reading some of the stories here has been very moving. Today I stopped to ask a neighbour something, and then, maybe because of this thread, saw her with different eyes.
I have known her all my life, she is about 10 years older than OP.
Age 17 she had a baby out of wedlock. although I know in the wider community, babies were often put up for adoption, in our little patch, they were mostly kept and looked after.
At 19 she married, and her husband brought her son up as his own (although there was no subterfuge) and they had 2 children of their own.
They were foster parents for about 30 years until they became too old. They are pillars of the church, in the nicest way, going out of their way to support young families, and have never tried to hide their history.
I realised how much I took this kindly woman for granted, how reliable & helpful she is. When one of the neighbours had a heart attack and died whilst cleaning his car, it was she who organised everyone, helped the widow cope with her husband's body being out in the street etc. She checked on my parents when they became ill.
I realised how little "the right order" mattered.

Actually, I think its best for people to get married before they have children.

And stay together for as long as the children are at home. (Well, within limits. I don't include the revolving door grownup kids)

phoenix, things were not done in order - of course they weren't. They never have been, and indeed, why should they? Life itself isn't ruled by 'how things should/must be done'. Like your mother I was hidden (at home) throughout my pregnancy, the summer of 1966. I wasn't allowed to go out, unless it was down the garden, and then only 'as far as the cabbages', because if I went any further down the garden the neighbours may see me. Now, I feel sorry for my mother. She didn't have a good start, not being given the information that she should have had when she was growing up. She hid herself away - with me - never going across the doorstep for months. So, I suppose if you think about it, because her grandmother didn't do things 'in order' in 'her day' (1890), and then her mother didn't do things in order in her day (1924), my life didn't follow a comfortable and organised path, where exams were sat at the right time, and where babies came along at the 'right' time. It honestly doesn't matter now, though.

There have been quite a few unmarried mothers in my family and quite a few "shotgun weddings" too, going back several generations. It's nothing new.

My mum wasn't married.

Wartime. (I think the girls felt sorry for the soldiers on their way to the front. Well, you would really.)