to think that people should be truer to their 'belief'

Goodness nanaej, raising your head above the parapet on that one is a whole new bowl of moles. You're right about that thread though – very Old Testament.

Well..I just think if you rush to defend one's Christian beliefs on a Monday you should stick to them on Tuesday too! In my mind some of the 'got wot he deserved' gang would be vociferous in objecting the rough justice of Sharia law extremes ...I do not see the difference.

I didn't feel that anyone was exactly expressing satisfaction that this man had been murdered nanaej. I acknowledged my own complete lack of sympathy for this man and even a wish that he suffered a slow and painful death, like that of the poor child he tortured and killed. I am not proud of that feeling but I was being honest about my initial gut reaction. I also said that I am very glad that we live in a country which does not have the death penalty and has a fair and transparent justice system. I take no satisfaction from this man's death, but my pity is reserved for his victim and his family who are blameless.

When the Catholic priest visited my father in hospital my mother said that she was afraid he wasn't a very good one. "We none of us are" was the priest's answer and I think that is the point. However Christian one tries to be it is very hard when someone has done something so appalling.

Nanaej, I've just been to look at the thread you refer to. There are a many opinions there and I have no idea which of the contributers to that thread identify themselves as Christians. (I only look in here every few days). But a number of themes seem to be emerging. The predominant one is 'hate the sin but love ( or at least try to understand ) the sinner'. That is, hold the offence in utter detestation but try to understand the reasons why a person becomes so corrupted that they are able to commit these dreadful crimes.

And, having tried to understand, then attempt, as a civilised society, to find some way of bringing the perpetrator to a full realisation of what they have done and an intention never to follow the same behaviour again.

In Christian terms that would be to repent of sin and form a strong and sincere purpose of amendment.

I am not at all sure that the prison system can achieve this in addition to its right and proper purpose of punishing the offender, but I am glad, that with all its faults, we have a criminal justice system which removes personal vendettas and punishes offenders in the name of the entire body of citizens.

Could I ask what you think makes a christian? I have a real problem with people who think that if you go to church that makes you one. I feel there are more "christians" out of church than in and can you do christian "works" but not necessarily think of yourself as a christian. When I was a little girl(many moons ago ha ha) our next door neighbour counted himself as a christian, he went three times on a Sunday and once on a Tuesday evening. Now I remember his eighteen year old daughter borrowing some salad cream from us and she forgot to give it back, not exactly a war crime ay? My mum just happened to see the father and asked if we could have it back, only cos she had forgotten to replace it. So, this girl who was lovely and my sort of idol appeared at our door in great distress and had obviously been beaten by her "christian" father for not returning it. I hasten to add,for all it's worth, we lived in a very "posh" area and nobody would have believed it from the"church" he went to.
I also read in a newspaper about a homeless man turning up at a church one very cold and snowy chistmas eve, wanting possibly warmth and a hot drink and yes, he was turned away, "you can't trust those sorts" was the quote given by the"christians"attending.
I feel very strongly against the death penalty because how many innocent people have possibly been executed and I really do not understand how, like in America, the families of victims can possibly watch the execution. Could any Gransnetters do this?
I just feel we haven't quite got the justice and punishment quite right yet and we still seem to consider the offenders rights more than the victims. I do hope I haven't veered off course too much, this is only my third post so please bare with me.

I can only speak for myself and I know I am a really bad Christian.

Can't say more. Grandson leaping around.

positive, I no longer call myself a Christian although I was brought up in the Church of Scotland. However, I believe that the way the New Testament teaches us to behave is as good a code as any - better than most. If only more Christians would observe the teachings of Jesus and forget the more vengeful teachings of Leviticus!

Oh tis a tricky one this. So much intolerance seems to stem from people citing their devout religious beliefs (of all varieties). You only have to look at the unpleasantness behind CofEs problems with women bishops etc. And when you look further afield into other countries religions it all becomes deeply distressing. I just tend to think I am a sort of Christian....with a small 'c' rather than with 'C'! I just try to be as tolerant as I can, try not to be judgemental or bigotted and just hope I live my life without causing harm or distress to others. I have known lovely generous spirited deeply Christian folks who look at life with such a gentle forgiving nature and also dogmatic unpleasant Christians who hide behind 'cherry picked' scriptures and make things pretty unpleasant for anyone who does not see life as they do. hey ho....I just live and let live as best as I can and hope its enough.

HildaW I just have to say, that I think what you have just written shows you are what i call a true real Christian. What can be better than "I just live and let live as best as I can and hope its enough" What more could anyone ask and if we all lived by that philosophy, how much better the world would be!! You have my admiration.

Positivepam, I am very touched.

Hi, as the OP I just felt that some people who had called themselves Christian... whatever they mean by that, appeared to be displaying non Christian values by being pleased at another human's death and wishing they had really suffered. By finding that attitude awful does not mean I do not feel great anger at the crime the man committed.

I agree the law /sentencing etc need to be more reflective of society's views that violent criminals should have very long sentences carried out in full in humane but no-frills accommodation.

Yes. You are being unreasonable.

Btw, Jesus abhorred child harmers. (If any one of you should harm one of these my little ones.............)

And what was that about casting the first stone?

My father, a very much lapsed catholic, always said there were better people outside the churches than were in them.I do not always agree with that, as there are some very nasty people outside the churches as well, and I have met some very lovely, kind and honest people who are also regular church goers.
But not all so called practising christians are good.Some think because they go to church they can do what they like.I remember one catholic priest telling us, in his homily, about a lady who told him she always prayed for the sinners.The priest asked her to pray for him then,as he was a sinner as well.
My maternal grandfather was brought up as a strict Methodist.During his childhood he went to church twice on a Sunday etc.As soon as he left school he said he had had enough of religion and only went to church on family occaisions.He was a very good, honest and kindest man who was admired and respected by alot of people.The only remnant of his Methodist upbringing was the fact he remained teetotal all his life,but had no objection to other people having a drink.My grandmother was fond of a drop or two on social occaisons,and his son, my uncle, could drink for England.

One thing that surprises me is that someone I know who is a housebound, fairly frail, Catholic lady does not receive any pastoral care from her priest. He whips in once a month to bring mass. Other weeks another woman from church brings her mass. She has some very good friends who she met through church. But does the priest ever sit with her and help her with the spiritual reserves she needs to keep going in pain and suffering. No.
Is this because the catholic church is so short of manpower these days or is it that it is a kind of DIY religion. Mass is enough. No other spiritual support needed?

They are short of manpower; what they need is womanpower.

Yes what is it with those old guys? Who'd be a catholic when you can be an anglican and have a nice woman vicar? (not that I am either, but if there was a choice between a church where they were so desperate to keep their all celibate men rule that they have to import priests from very distant countries in a desperate attempt to keep the show on the road - and one that had a nice female vicar...)