AIBU to ask if you knew this about GirlGuiding?

Here is an extract from an article in the Mail on Sunday, giving the background to Helen Watts' dismissal as a Guide Leader.

Helen also had serious concerns about the culture of secrecy the Guides’ new rules were encouraging. The transgender policy stated that it was not ‘best practice’ to tell parents that their daughters would be sharing facilities such as sleeping areas and toilets with transgender girls, who were born male, during trips away.

And it added that it would be ‘unlawful’ for leaders to inform parents their children were being looked after by transgender women on overnight excursions.

‘To foster this environment where Guide leaders can keep secrets from parents felt very sinister,’ Helen says. ‘Child protection rule number one is you do not keep secrets with children. A child who has a secret with an adult is very vulnerable to being exploited.’

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6222859/Guide-leader-says-sacked-telling-bosses-new-transgender-policies-pose-risk.html

Background checks on transwomen who volunteer as Guide leaders will be meaningless if this person gets their way.

A transwoman wishes crimes committed when he was a man to be removed from record, so that employers will not be aware of his trans status.

A right to removal, if established, could cover rape, another crime that can legally be committed only by a person with a penis.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb

The scouting organisation relies on volunteers who work so hard to help. I was reflecting on the seemingly increasing complexity of things which may put some people off. It was badly worded.

I don't understand your reference to autism, oldbatty.
I have no problem with leaders, or guides, in hijab. In fact, Muslim women and girls are likely to exclude themselves from guides when they become aware that there may be male-bodied leaders and guides there.

Here is GirlGuiding's response to media criticism of their suspension of two guide leaders :
www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/our-response-to-the-media-attention-to-our-equality-and-diversity-policy/

Can they genuinely see no possible problem with simply accepting a statement from a boy or man, that he is now a girl or woman?

Who, in their right mind would volunteer with this organisation? Gender issues, leaders in Hijab, Autism. My kids loved Scouts and it was damn hard work for the leaders.

Its so sad for the thousands of kids who benefit from this organisation.

Farnorth I've just read news item elsewhere and I am boggled at the sheer refusal to the GG's to see what is in front of them.

Have you seen this, too, in Canada? www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/09/21/accused-toronto-killer-was-carrying-sword-at-time-of-arrest-trial-hears.html

Helen Watts, the Guide Leader quoted earlier in this thread, has been expelled from her post for raising concerns about GirlGuiding's policy on trans leaders and guides.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-guide-leaders-expelled-for-questioning-trans-policy-550x7m55r?shareToken=7a38b88bdd1dd0634eaeb75c0d060fa4

I haven't seen anything about GirlGuiding actually addressing those concerns and explaining what they are doing to ensure everyone's safety.

Diana54, a prison governor has already said that a transman (female) in a men's prison would simply not be safe, so it would not be allowed.

Having surgery and hormone treatment does not make a man into a woman and does not remove criminal tendency towards women if that already exists.

Baggs, I think you have misunderstood.
GirlGuiding intends to treat male-bodied transgirls, i.e. boys, as being girls for all purposes including sharing sleeping accommodation and washing facilities.
Parents were not informed of this policy development.

This is always going to be contentious, balancing Trans Rights as they are seen today with parents wishes. As a parent I would not want my daughter to be supervised by a Trans leader and she would simply leave Guiding.

It is a question of who I trust to keep my children safe, a Transvestite along with certain other groupings would not be permitted and as a parent I will choose.

The same issue is causing problems in prisons, where do you put prisoners who say the are Trans. The solution seems to be if they have had the operation and hormone treatment they can go to a female prison, otherwise it is a male prison. I'm not sure what the opposite change would mean, would a female who identifies as male really want to go to a male prison

Except for sleeping and washing arrangements, the kids will be all together or in mixed groups for all activities.

Itis not the job of the Girl Guides or the Scout Association, or any other such body, to change rules about such things while trans issues are not yet fully understood. I refer you to recent sexual assaults by men claiming to be women in women's prisons.

Scout Assoc separates girls and boys on residential trips too.

Seems a perfectly normal thing to do.

My sister and I had a separate bedroom from our brothers from a fairly early age. I think, from oersonal observations, that children begin (note te word "begin") to become sexually aware at about the age of six. It's decent and respectful to give them a bit of privacy.

The trans issue is just muddying the waters. Physical attributes do matter. I have said that while having full sympathy for any child who feels they are in the wrong body.

yes i knew, Thanks to the Times and Mumsnet.

boys who transition to girls, can share accomodation with girls who were born girls. this includes sharing rooms, and shower facilities. in addition the parents of the girls are not told that their daughter will be sharing with a person born male who will still have a male body. Also, if the girls object they are "re-educated"

I'd guess, notanan2, that if a girl 'becomes' a boy s/he is then treated by GG as a boy, as in not allowed to be a guide.

At least GG now seem to be thinking about what their policy should be, instead of saying everything is fine.

Your point about transwomen Guide Leaders is very worrying, especially if lunacy prevails so that a criminal record can be deleted to spare a TW's feelings.

If guiding care more about being seen as trans allies than they do about young girls then will that extend to not "deadnaming" (a mortal crime against transpeople) leaders by searching their birth name for criminal record checks?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb

P.s. shouldnt GGs inclusion of trans kids be trans boys (F-M)? If girls can be whatever they want to be etc?

I wrote to GirlGuiding to ask what their policy is for inclusion of transgirls in events.

Here is their reply :

Thank you for your further contact. I am very sorry for the continued delay in providing you with a response.

Please be advised that we are currently reviewing the points you’ve raised; however we will need a little longer than usual in order to provide you with a fully considered response.

We appreciate your patience whilst we review your question and please be assured that we will be in touch again soon.

Best wishes,

Kylie


Kylie Appiah
Information & Complaints Administrator
Information, Enquiries & Complaints Team.

So it seems they have had no policy in place.

Thanks for that link FarNorth. Helen makes some very salient points.

Here are the views of a Guide Leader who has been brave enough to put her head above the parapet on this :

fairplayforwomen.com/helen-watts/

In her conclusion she says "I oppose gender self identity because it breaches the most basic safeguarding principles. It undermines privacy and dignity and denies women and girls a choice. It also reinforces stereotypes: if being a girl is not based on biological sex, then what is it?"

Btw, some Guides may be thrilled if a cute boy decides he's a girl and is allowed to share accomodation with them.

Their parents may be less thrilled if they were unaware that was even a possibility until they find out a girl is pregnant (the transgirl having had a change of heart or, just possibly, not really being trans at all.)

Tony as Fifi asks to be transferred to a female prison

Whether that request is granted or not, Tony as Fifi may be released and commit another crime.
Tony as Fifi will then be treated as a female and the crime will be recorded as being carried out by a female, even if it is a sexual assault or rape.

Hence "no evidence of transwomen committing crimes" because no-one is keeping a record of that.

(The website transcrimeuk.com is attempting to keep track of some crimes by trans people, the vast majority being transwomen i.e. men).

Did you know that schools are being given guidance and training, from a number of companies, in supporting trans gender children? One of these is Allsorts - and one of their nuggets of wisdom is to suggest that a girl who objects to a transgirl (i. e. a full bodied boy) participating in the same sport as her should be encouraged to find another sport. So, the transgirl's rights trample all over the girl's rights. And this guidance and training is in schools now - apparently it is in all schools in Brighton. Why on earth it wasn't consigned to the rubbish bin by headteachers and governors is beyond me. By the way, I gleaned all this from Mumsnet, which is one of the very few places on the Internet where these issues are being discussed and not being shut down by trans activists. If any of you feel you'd like to know more, it's worth looking at the relevant Mumsnet feminism threads. I've learned a lot from them.

There are real problems here if legislation goes ahead so that men who self-ID as women (still with a penis and no gender reassignment surgery) can insist on the right to enter previously safe women-only spaces like refuges.

I say this not from transphobia in any way .. my worry is the opportunities the proposed legislation offers for ill-intentioned men - who are not truly transgender - to abuse vulnerable women by claiming to be women themselves.

Too many public bodies are afraid to come out and address this issue for fear of being accused of being transphobic.

It's crazy.

Thanks for useful link Farnorth

"If the other GG are comfortable then not a problem. I am not sure there are huge numbers involved but best prepared for a situation should it arise."

That's the point PECS, guides and their parents have not been informed that this is a possibility

*"I think it starts when they have completed their reassignment."

I think that's what most people believe, Bluebelle, yet as petunia stated, around 80% of males who claim to be women do not go on to have treatment of hormones or surgery.

The UK government is carrying out a consultation until October 19, where everyone can make their views known.
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004