Triangulation /the narcissistic kind

You're right Onward begging and pleading would simply have put us in a worse position and as much as I love our son, and I do so very much, it's simply not in my nature and the irony is, he knows that, knows me better than that and yet, there'll always be a part of me that will believe it shocked him that I didn't.

It was powerful because it so obviously came from your heart, it was powerful because is was true.

When our lives are so deeply affected by lies and deceit we're apt to forget just how powerful the truth really is.

thank you for mentioning triangulation.
it is a useful concept for understanding unhealthy dynamics.
i realise that much of my life has been as rescuer, occ victim.
it is a role, kind of a script, to step on the stage with.
i have seen life as acting on a stage since i was a child.
you get roles thrust upon us, look to others to see what is being played, try to improvise, then find we fall more easily into certain roles, and can even get some kind of acclaim,
for providing distraction, entertainment, carrying the show.
anyway it can become a snare.
i have been manipulated by someone with limiting health issues but presented themselves as being dominated and abused by a relative.
which was true. but took me a while to see that she would always put that relative first, despite being abused by same, while playing the victim to get my help and attention.
to get work input from me, that ought to come from relative.
who wont do anything boring, or that needs careful attention and liaising with, respecting others' expertise.
anyway i got caught again. slightly different. she resents me speaking to another helper in her life; so she now tell me that said helper is angry with me. this has happened before.
yet when i see that person, it is not so.
i know who i believe. from past events.
i need to keep my own boundaries. not get caught. stay firm.

sorry so convoluted.
trying to explain, without being too outing.

I'm so sorry Smileless that is painful I know, as I've also lost a son. My situation is slightly different in that MH is involved and he had become paranoid about the covid jab, believing that anyone who had it was a direct threat and was going to be used to kill him and his family. I don't know if he still believes this, but I know he felt very strongly and even threatened me to try and stop me having the vaccine.

Like your son is shocked that you didn't beg, I think my son is shocked that I went ahead and ignored everything he said to get vaccinated. It's sad for them, but I don't see what can be done and it's not right that they should try to use their kids as weapons to manipulate us or hurt us if we don't obey them.

My life has been affected by lies all through because I've been painted black by my mother all my life. The reality was that I was the one looking after my sister while she had a nice rest. I'm sure the only reason she was angry and said horrible things after I left home was that her chief slave had gone and she finally had to do things herself. It's sad how she has probably wrecked the relationship between my sister and myself because my sister hangs off every word she says.

Walking away from toxic people, refusing to be manipulated by them you do pay a price- but the peace you gain is priceless. It's painful losing people, but probably not as painful as perpetually being pulled back into endless dramas.

That's the worse thing about it Onward, using their children to inflict pain by taking them away from us, not because they should but because they can.

Sometimes they mistakenly think we can be emotionally blackmailed and manipulated and I wonder, if they're shock at being unsuccessful is greater than ours when we realised what they were trying to do.

I'm so sorry that your son is affected by MH issues. Our's is affected by his wife's questionable MH, but I do wonder if as a result he may be having some issues of his own.

He's changed, not just emotionally but physically. The last time I saw him, about 3.5 years ago when we drove past, he looked so awful it broke my heart. We no longer go to the village where we used to live so at least we're spared from seeing him.

Your final paragraph is spot on.

My mother was the same. The damage she caused was horrible and twisted. I will never understand what she gets out of it. I stopped contact more than 2 years ago because I just couldn't take any more.

The friend doesn't sound very trustworthy, I would cool things off if I were you. Or maybe just tell her you don't like to talk about other people and see what her reaction is.

"I have read that scapegoats are actually the healthiest family member. "

I believe this 100%!

Scapegoats are typically chosen as the scapegoat because they are the strongest. They will stand up for right and wrong. They also come through it the healthiest.

My mother still gets mad about me telling her at age 2 that I was not going to wear the dress she picked out for me, I was going to pick out my own clothes. Still, almost 50 years later she is mad about that.

I look at my sister, the Golden Child and she is a mess. I would never want to be in her shoes even though, as a child, I envied her because she got everything (emotionally) and I got nothing.

I enjoy being a strong person. I was called a *itch my whole life, even by my mother as a child. I finally accepted that "nickname" as a good thing.

I reflect what I get back. If I am a *itch, it is a reflection of you. I am a super nice and tolerant person with a ton of patience. So if you are seeing *itch, it says a lot about YOU, not me.

freedomfromthepast narcissists create monsters only they can see.

Yep. She sees me as a monster, but I am not.

I still make her mad because I still push back all the time when I have to be involved with her. It is going to be a long few months with getting Grandma's estate settled. Her and I are already going rounds the last few weeks. I will be glad when it is over and I no longer have to have contact with her.

Stay strong freedomfromthepast there's a light at the end of your tunnel so look forward to the day when you no long have to have contact.

Thanks so much Smileless I am sorry I haven't written for a few days. So much going on with elderly parents needing stuff! My husband's Mum has been a bit of a terror lately , but we've got her a Social worker now so things should start getting better.

I'm so sorry to hear your son looked so different and not in a good way, Smileless. I also noticed the same thing with mine. I hope its not his MH, but it's inevitable sometimes that if you are around someone a lot that has problems sometimes you end up affected too. I will read all the replies and reply properly later on.

Lots of people on here with difficult or narcissistic mothers. It’s all so sad. I feel for anyone in this situation, as I’m in it too. My mother is 94 next week. I wonder how long it will go on. I’ve been to visit her in her care home this afternoon, and as usual it was all complaints and negativity. Complaining I haven’t brought the jelly babies she asked for last week. Or the baby powder, which she said wasn’t urgent, but apparently now is urgent.
Onwardandupward I feel for you, as I do for everyone else in this situation. I’m sure that like me, you’re longing for the day when there’ll be peace. Smileless always gives good advice in these situations. I’m not sure I’m in a great place to give advice as I’m still battling on myself.

No worries Onward. I'm glad you've got a social worker for your m.i.l. that should help ease some of the pressure.

My dearest friend is a secondary school teacher and she once told me how she's noticed that sometimes the really pretty girls that soon become known for being bitchy and bullies, don't look nearly as pretty by the time they leave.

She said it's as if the nastiness on the inside eventually becomes visible on the outside too. That's what I thought when I saw our ES. He'd been infected by her so much so that he didn't even look the same anymore.

So sorry Shelbel thats a real shame! I will take your advice about my friend because it always feels one way like Im making all the effort. Im not sure why she wanted info, but I only said nice things about the other lady.

Freedomfromthepast thats interesting because my sister , the Golden Child, is the same. Shes insecure and jealous, full of hatred. Its always been the way that she had things I didn't, both growing up and as an adult. I'm fortunately not the jealous type- but it has always amazed me just how miserable she seems with her lot and that she seems to try to bring me down all the time. She did get everything emotionally that I didn't get- but I believe she is enmeshed with my Mother. It's a truly toxic love-hate relationship they have.

I am so sad and sorry for you that you were called Itch. That's terrrible of them! And yet, I too am at a point where I am happy in myself (something they will probably never be!) I have always been "too much" in some way, whether it was too fat, too noisy, too stupid, too ugly... and so on. I was never quite right for them. But they are not happy with me or without me.

I hope your Grandma's estate does not take too long to settle, so you can be rid of this toxic relationship!

Freedomfromthepast can I just ask what you mean by pushing back? I started sticking up for myself less than a year ago. Its got to have come as a shock to her! I have put up with a lot, but no longer willing to.

Maddyone yes, I feel for you. It really is a lifelong trial! Like you, I long for peace! I only have it when I am not spending time with them.

Smileless yes, big sigh of relief. I nearly lost it there! Phew. My husband nearly lost it as well. Shocking that things have to get so tricky before anyone steps in!

That's really interesting about what your friend said about the pretty girls. Its like Roald Dahl said "A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.”"

Im so sorry you saw that with your son Smileless. I also did see my sons face change dramatically, but also found out yesterday that hes been on drugs and trying to get off now. Explains why he was so paranoid and strange, still havent heard from him but see stuff online. Such a shame!

Sago

It’s all so sad and unnecessary, I was the scapegoat, my mother was narcissistic, my father was a violent bully as was my brother.

They are all dead now, my mother the last to go 18 months ago.
The longer I live without them the stronger I get.

I cherish every day that I am alive and they are dead.

?????

OnwardandUpward

Its fine Namsnanny its good youre able to talk about this toxicity. It makes me feel less alone, too.

As I get older I think family will be the friends I choose for myself. My birth family have shown me that they cannot be trusted. These toxic families depend on having a scapegoat so they do not have to ever face accountability.

I am so sorry for all the awful things you've also experienced that do really hurt. My sister also did that thing you mentioned about the cheap/expensive gifts when she got married and gave all her bridesmaids a gift. I was horrified when I opened mine and saw jewellery that looked like it came from a supermarket because I could hear the other bridesmaids gushing over their designer pieces. I was forced to gush over mine and say thankyou because I could not ruin her day. I think she must really hate me to do that- or think I am stupid enough not to notice. I'm glad you mentioned the gift thing because it's made me feel able to share that and I've kept it to myself for so many years,

I also find that I cannot share these things to people who do not know because they believe that the one talking about their family is the toxic one. Indeed for most of my life I have thought it was me, but I now know it's not.

The labels they have put on me - fat, ugly, stupid etc etc... all my life- it makes me realize that I was just a dumping ground for them to use to step on. About ten years ago my Mother was bullying me so badly when I was signed off from work (with a breakdown) that I almost committed suicide. I ended my relationship with my husband because she and my sister and also they recruited my sister in law to harass me, made me feel unworthy of him.

While we were separated my mother was jubilant and was putting notes through my husband's door (he was living nearby) I realised she was glorying in my pain and getting high off my separation, even perhaps that she had designs on my husband. I began to mend things with him and we retook our vows. After that my mother banned us from Christmas and didn't want to talk to us at all. This is when she turned my sister against me even more.

I have avoided talking about a lot of this in case of exposure but I don't care anymore. My mental health matters more than their security. I've carried them for almost a lifetime and they were never mine to carry. They have robbed me of living a life I was proud of and being accepted for the person I am meant to be, but I now live in spite of them and everything they have tried to do.

Thanks for sharing your stories We all need to know, it was never us. It was never about us. It's all about them and who they are. We have carried the blame that was never ours but talking helps

Good God Almighty, I have never heard anything like this, I am so sorry for you and for all the others on this thread who are suffering or have suffered…???

"Freedomfromthepast can I just ask what you mean by pushing back? I started sticking up for myself less than a year ago. Its got to have come as a shock to her! I have put up with a lot, but no longer willing to."

I mean standing up for myself. Telling her no. Remember I first did it when I was 2 and she wanted to dress me up like a doll and I refused. She is still mad and loves to rehash it all these years later.

As you know, the scapegoat is usually the one who refused to be manipulated and controlled. When I saw something that I know was not right, I would say it. I was taught the difference between right and wrong, but they did not walk the walk so to speak. The older I got, the more I called it out, the worse she got with me.

Gosh I remember we once ended up in therapy as a "family". I must have been about 13 and I cant even remember why we were there to be honest. It may be because I thought if they HEARD me, things would get better for me, and us as a family unit.

She let me go first. So there I was, about 13 or so, pouring my heart out to this therapist. Telling him all the things I thought would make it better. Then it was her turn. She threw a literal toddler fit. Slapping her arms on her legs, screaming at the top of her lungs how she is not surprised that I always blame her and no one appreciates her. I am actually surprised that no one checked on her with all the goings on.

I immediately clammed up. The therapist gave me a talking to about how I should be more supportive of my mother. Never went back after that visit.

After that is when she got REALLY nasty. She starting calling me a Itch, telling me I am unlovable and no one would want to date me (as a teen). She would compare me and my sisters and decide that I was getting fat, despite me being a tiny size 2 back then.

I know now that she was projecting. I had learned her truth and called her out on it with that therapy session, so it was war.

She had still raised me to not stand up to her, so I didnt really. By that point I avoided her as much as I could. You never know what you were going to get. She might be sweet as pie or a maniac.

I got married very young, just after I turned 20. Divorced 18 months later. Had to move back home for 6 months. She tried to stop me from seeing my friends or doing anything. Had my dad talk to me about how disrespectful I was being by going out with friends after work. It was all about her trying to control me.

The fact that she can not and never has been able to control me is what makes her the most mad. Most of the time I ignore her when I have to be in contact. But some days, the b!tchy side of me comes out and I will "push back" knowing I am going to make her mad. I dont care. I typically am the bigger person, but some days...

I agree with you on the Golden Child enmeshment. My sister could be controlled.

She is now in her late 30's and has nothing to show for her life. She is back living with my parents again and has lost her job. I feel bad for her because she will never recover from the emotional abuse and enmeshment that she endured. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes at all.

On the topic of triangulation, my middle sister and I are very close. My mother tried everything she could to come between us. She would call me and complain and tell lies about her, and vice versa. She almost succeeded in ruining our relationship entirely. WE spent a year nearly all estranged because of my mother. Luckily, we worked it out and are back to being very close.

My mother told my nephew (she went after my kids and my nephew when she couldn't control us) that she knew that when I moved back near them from another state that I would ruin her relationship with everyone.

She also told my children that I was purposefully trying to keep my kids away from her and telling people how she is a bad person.

It caused a LOT of mental trauma with my youngest that we are still dealing with 3 years later. That is why, seeing her while dealing with my Grandma's estate, is a constant headache. You never know what she is going to do or say. She is sneaky and manipulative and has to be watched constantly.

It's so sad because I used to think of I just keep telling the truth eventually they will see it. I thought I was really alone in having a mum like mine but I also thought she was alone in her thinking. Actually, others were invested in her lies.

Inclusing my brother.

Losing a sibling in these families to that, watching them change, watching them start to enjoy having a scapegoat around.. While also knowing that they are that way because they have been abused too, just in a different way.

It's heartbreaking

It’s interesting that those with difficult mothers probably all thought that nobody else had a mother like theirs. I did. I knew she was different than other mothers, that she didn’t show care like other mothers did, that she put me down and squashed my expectations. I’d ask ‘can I have a kitkat?’ ‘No! Those are for your Dad, not for you.’ A very small example of how you’re made to feel less than. There were a thousand other small examples which all added up to a big feeling of being less than. She offered my baby a kitchen knife to play with and laughed when I gasped in horror. She would never have given him the knife, she wanted my reaction. My reaction was funny to her.

That's a lovely quote from Roald Dhal Onward. Seeing the change in our ES's physical appearance reinforced that he's no longer the person he used to be.

I'm so sorry about your son, hopefully he'll be able to come off the drugs he's been taking for good and as you say that goes a long way to explaining his paranoia and strange behaviour.

Your "bitchy side" as you call it freedomfromthepast is your inner warrior, fighting for your right to be you and to be loved and respected for who you are.

My brother was the 'golden child', not because he could be controlled but because my mum was obsessed with him. I was of course from a young child aware of his special status, aware that my relationship with my mum wasn't as close as his but thankfully, it was never to the extent that it was detrimental to my childhood.

She was a good mum to me too, but they had a closeness I knew we would never have. I loved her dearly and I know she loved me dearly in return, just not quite as much.

I think when a relationship like the one between a mother and child, isn't normal, isn't what you know it should and could be, you never think it could be happening to anyone else maddyone.

It's that belief that makes it so hard to tell anyone, even to admit it to yourself, but when you know that there are others who have had the same of very similar experiences, that enables you to speak out. It enables you to let go of any thoughts you've had that it's somehow your fault because you've had a lifetime of being told 'it's not me it's you'.

It's the same when your AC estranges you. You haven't of course had a life time of emotional abuse, but the 'it's not me it's you' is still very relevant.

The incident with the knife made my blood run cold It read like a scene from a horror film. You are not "less than", you never were and you never will be.

I used to hear of the terrible things my mother said about me - from my brother. Of course, she'd also complain about him to me.

Our older sister was the favourite - who could do no wrong. I always knew it was my mother's own problem, though, nothing to do with the real situation.

Some people should never have children!

Oh thank you so much for flowers Smileless. I will get back to this thread later but I have to go to see my mother in her care home shortly because it’s her 94th birthday. I still do everything I can for her despite all, but I am wondering when my peace will come, and for that thought I feel guilty.