Veganism, genuine questions.

I can understand why vegans think as they do (but could argue against it) but what I cannot understand is why they cannot see another point of view but their own.

Everyone is not going to become vegan overnight so why wonder what would happen ? Hopefully, with environmental, as well as animal welfare concerns, people will eat less meat and more plant based food, so gradually those huge factory farms will become fewer, fewer forests will be chopped down for livestock and more land released for arable farming for human rather than animal consumption. This is good for both the environment and animals. Gradual change has already started - lots of restaurants and supermarkets offer vegan food and lots of people are happy to eat vegan food without committing to full time vegan eating. Doing the least harm possible should be what we are aiming for. Just because we can’t be perfect all the time shouldn’t mean we shouldn’t try.

Of course vegans can see other points of view. Most of us weren’t born vegans and have non vegans in our families. I know meat eating is a culturally ingrained belief/ habit which many people enjoy and aren’t going to change. I suppose I would like people to gradually think about where and how their food is produced and occasionally try food that isn’t based on animal products.

Hopefully, with environmental, as well as animal welfare concerns, people will eat less meat and more plant based food, so gradually those huge factory farms will become fewer, fewer forests will be chopped down for livestock and more land released for arable farming for human rather than animal consumption.

That is an oxymoron.

You state that fewer forests will be chopped down for livestock yet think it is fine for more land released for arable farming for human rather than animal consumption.

It is 'pie in the sky' and just not feasible.

Sheep will live and thrive where crops cannot be grown.

Cattle in other countries roam over vast areas but the land does not consist of forests which need to be 'chopped down'.

Should farms be controlled ? Using more arable land as opposed to pasture ?

Animal consumption is necessary for the management of land which is unsuitable for arable farming.

Without the balance, arable farmers will have to go back to using chemical fertilizers and what about the tourist industry who flock (sorry) to admire landscapes that owe their beauty to good stock management.

OK, how about this for one to throw into the mix, how could an Inuit live a vegan life?

I guess they'd be driven out of their environment, phoenix

the tourist industry who flock (sorry) to admire landscapes that owe their beauty to good stock management.

Many people think they understand husbandry but they only see it from a limited, consumer point of view.

how could an Inuit live a vegan life?
Seaweed?
Do they have seaweed in the Far North?

Sprouts are best eaten after a frost.

It’s not an oxymoron - food could be grown for humans on land that is currrently used to grow food for livestock. Land used for livestock could be kept for wildlife , as much deforestation is for livestock grazing and industrial farming. A plant based diet is much less demanding of land and water than livestock farming. No one is saying all humans should / could be vegan in every environment. The success of humans is that we have been able to exploit almost every type of environment on the planet. We in the west have more choices - we can live quite healthily without exploiting and harming other creatures. It’s a choice. Some humans don’t have the choices . Inuit have learned to survive in an environment with fewer choices.

'still don't get the vegan anti wool thing.'
Has anyone explained it yet? I'm a bit slow on the uptake tonight.
btw sheep wool is one of the best insulating materials for the home, but much more expensive than other types eg fibreglass.

But what would Inuits wear?

crystaltipps, How are you going to prevent de-forestation of land for growing crops?

An increase in demand will lead to exploitation. It always does.

There is no logic or reason to the vegan case because it’s an Emotional choice and if anyone does not want to use animal products that’s fine by me

What I object to is being called a bad person because I choose to do what mankind has been doing perfectly legally for millennia and eat a mixed diet, wear leather shoes and woolen clothes.

This is a sensationalist propaganda campaign that tthe media have lapped up, the more extreme the better. They even latched on to the # me to # tag line “ Milk is Rape” because Dairy cows are bred using Artificial Insemination, and had not given consent.

Choose to be a vegan if you want but don’t demonize others.

Davidhs well put, imo.

I will eat animal flesh, wear their by products after their death,i.e. leather, also wear wool. The important thing is the quality of life.

When I had my sheep, I took every step to ensure that they enjoyed the highest possible standards of welfare. The lambs that they had were also given a wonderful life until it was time for slaughter, to the point of that we would borrow a suitable vehicle,load them quietly and gently, and take them to the abbatoir, where we had arranged that they would be killed in arrival, rather than be kept in pens for hours waiting their turn.

I say again, it is the quality of life that matters.

www.animalsaustralia.org/issues/mulesing.php

^choose to be a vegan if you want but don't demonise others'

Just about sums it up.

If we all become vegans will our canine teeth become superfluous to requirements?

Scotland's uplands are unsuitable for growing any food crops. Grass and heather is all that grows, which can be cropped by cattle and particularly sheep. The soil is a mere two or three inches deep in places and of course the hills are very challenging with rocky, sharp sloping terrain.

The only other alternative use to having stock would be to raise game for shooting.

Isn't that what has happened to our appendix?
Did I read somewhere that it used to be much bigger, and was for helping to digest large quantities of meat?

I believe the vegan concept is selective because it's impossible to live in 21C society without consuming animal products in one way or another.

Animal products are in almost everything we use. Stearic acid derived from animal tallow is used as a coolant in our electronic devices and in everyday plastic items as a slip agent. Replacing animal-derived stearic acid with palm-oil based stearic acid contributes to the destruction of wildlife habitats.

Sugar is often filtered through bone charcoal.

Cotton fabric beloved of vegans is the most energy-inefficient and toxic of all fabric to produce polluting water courses and killing marine life. Few realise that a by-product of the cotton industry is cotton-seed waste ... which is fed to animals to fatten them for meat.

As far as I am aware, few sheep are kept only for their wool. There's little money in fleece. Environmentally, it makes more sense to wear wool. At least the whole animal is being put to use.

I don't condone cruelty to animals and I hope that the sorts of examples of cruelty quoted here are rare. Unfortunately, there are a few people who, for whatever reason, seem not to care that they are hurting animals - human or otherwise.

The problem I have is: what are we going to wear?

Recently a TV programme explained that the production of cotton is one of the most environmentally damaging processes which has decimated large areas of some countries. Now we are being discouraged from wearing wool.

What are we to wear then? Surely the production of synthetic materials is equally damaging?

The thing is to do what your conscience is happy with.
If that means avoiding animal products as far as is practicable, or seeing them as a source of good food then we're all free to live how we see fit.

I do, to some extent, agree with the idea that the "quality" of life is just as important, if not more important, than the "quantity" of life.

However, since many people believe that the world is becoming dangerously over-populated and stripped of resources, this argument could be used to dispose humanely of human beings. We are quite happy to apply the concept to other animals but I wonder how many people would feel comfortable in applying it to themselves or their families.

I have a mainly vegetarian diet but do occasionally lapse. I very much admire true vegetarians, and vegans especially. It is a huge undertaking to rid your life completely of any animal products. Whilst I can understand why vegetarians and vegans feel so strongly that using animals is a cruel and inefficient way of providing food, I think being hyper-critical of others who do not share their beliefs does not assist their cause but merely alienates people.

I think all we can do Eloethan is to minimise the damage we do.

Synthetic materials are made from petro-chemicals. Think of all those synthetic fibers being shed into grey water each time they are washed. Cotton production is, as you say, hugely damaging. Our ancient ancestors had the right idea, using the whole animal for food, clothing, tools etc etc.

I eat a plant-based diet, no meat or fish but it's a dietary choice not a sentimental one. I buy organic wherever possible but am mindful that the soil those fruits and vegetables grew in will have been enriched with animal manure and those animals will have died to provide meat, skins, fleeces and other by-products.