Prospective doctors

Yes - don't get ill!

Surely these figures and the fact that the GMC is concerned are telling us something.

Good and bad doctors and nurses of all nationalities. British and non British. You would find the same of you went to a hospital in Australia or New Zealand.
I do think it is a disgrace though that we do not train enough medical staff ourselves and have to import so many from third world countries that are so short of doctors and nurses.

A surgeon in my part of the world was renowned for his appalling bedside manner. The ward sister had to come back and explain after the ward round to the bemused patient. His surgery was described as magic by everyone who saw him work and he was the surgeon of preference for nurses and doctors alike. Sadly long gone.

Didn't think so.
I suppose the good news is that these 600 -odd were found wanting and struck off, the coincidence with being trained abroad can hardly be ignored. Why not tighten up regs?

No, there isn't a spellchecker on GN - only on your own ipad or pc if you've set it (which I haven't because I've seen the sometimes hilarious results )

In spite of our scepticism when we first heard this item of news in the DM and the DT, today it is reported in the Guardian which says the figures have been produced by the GMC.

In the past five years 669 doctors were either styruck off or suspended and of this number 420 were trained abroad. The GMC are taking steps to ensure that foreign doctors meet UK standards.

I do have an axe to grind. If something is true we have a right to know about it, even if it is unpalatable to some people (not PC)

Alexa is there a spellchecker on Gransnet? I have not been aware of any changes to what I type - oh would that there were when I indulge in my usualy typos!
BTW which "ordinary words" were rejected??

I recently met a nurse from India. Although she was educated there her school taught all lessons in English, albeit circa 1950's language. I believe she was very competent in her nursing practise, but she was constantly being pulled up about her 'softer' skills. When she described the incidents that had prompted criticism from patients and colleagues it was easy for me (though not her) to see why. She was VERY rude in her manner; not intentionally, but due to cultural differences. At first she thought she was being 'picked on' because of racism, but I encouraged her to listen to how others spoke to the patients and see if she could spot the difference - reluctantly she agreed that she DID speak to patients more abruptly and worked at changing her manner (though only in order to pass her appraisal). I liked her enormously, but I would not have wanted her to nurse my mother (or me for that matter).

Kittylester, I would love your Mum saying 'something racist' and I believe that properly trained nurses or medics from all and any ethnic backgrounds would treat an elderly lady's ideas with gentleness and understanding.

I agree BTW that medical personel indeed any public servant should be a skilled communicator including by means of language; whatever the patient/client/ customer requires.

(What is up with the spell checker on gransnet it objects to perfectly ordinary words?)

Maybe it was a spoof about someone who had travelled far for a census and had to lodge in a stable and give birth there.

For me the main issue is where a foreign born doctor had done his/ her pre-registration training. If in UK, then not only is language almost certainly not going to be an issue, but they should be better versed in our general culture and the culture of the NHS. Having said that, because of shortages here, we are going to continue to import doctors trained abroad. There should be much more emphasis put on induction into UK culture( whatever that is!) and institutions and not just language - although non- EU doctors have to pass a language test - I don't know if its just on written English. I agree that with some conditions, language may not matter but with mental health for example it really does.

Immigrant ladies in 'a livery yard' Really? Is it a euphemism?

Sadly there are problems with foreign doctors, not just language, but as others have said, cultural misunderstandings. We are so vulnerable when we are ill that these things matter much more than if there is a misunderstanding with a bank clerk whose English is dicey.

If you have had a bad experience in this situation it is bound to make you wary - I have and I am.

Some years ago I was bleeding (when I should not have been) I had every test possible done: nothing wrong. Sometime after this I moved to Bulgaria and it started again. I went to my local hospital and saw a female Doctor who did not speak a word of English, and visa versa. Between us she sorted it out and it has never happened again.
I suppose what I'm saying is: given the right Doctor language is not necessary.

Oh well done DT. Let's panic everyone and really put the wind up them.
I too have had occasionally problems with (highly qualified) hospital doctors and nurses - some from the Far East, some Eastern European, whose use of English was, shall we say, different and who sometimes came across as abrasive. They did the business when it came to doctoring however. DH's heart surgeon is Chinese and brilliant - he can be more than a little brusque however.
At the moment 3 of our local GPs in our practice are 1) North African 2) (I think) Kenyan and 3) Asian. Actually they all speak perfect, beautiful English and are sympathetic understanding doctors. Yes, I think competence in English is necessary and it is not being racist to insist on that, but let's not start a witch-hunt.
BTW, messenger what did you mean by redundant in Enlglish?

This happens at all levels of health care. There are nurses at Mum's home who are almost unintelligible on the phone although more easy to understand in person. It must be very confusing for people of my Mum's generation who have not had much interaction with different nationalities - despite living in Leicester! I live in fear of Mum saying something awfully racist when she doesn't understand what is being said to her.

this is worrying

When I was training as a psychological counsellor it was emphasised that particular care needed to be taken when seeing someone from a different culture.

The usual unconscious assumptions that we all make when communicating with someone from our own culture should not be taken for granted.

This also applied to anyone with a different sexual orientation.

My own experience with doctors from abroad does lead me to believe that there can be subtle problems in communication. It happened when one of my grandchildren was seriously ill. It wasn't just that we could not always understand what the consultant was saying, the interaction was 'bumpy' at other levels.

Dare I say it, if I was trying to deal with something particularly difficult, like a diagnosis of terminal cancer, I would prefer to see a doctor from my own culture.

I think a lot of people expect to find it difficult to understand when a foreigner speaks to them. Foreign accents can be difficult - British films are sometimes subtitled in the US and I sometimes have problems with American films where the actors have strong regional accents. I think they have an editor at the DM whose responsibility is to invent inflammatory headlines even when the stories are not. Thank you for the link, when.

A good doctor needs to pick up on things that haven't been said as well as what's been said. I still remember a long time ago being asked a very direct question by a doctor from a different culture that completely threw me. Mind you there are doctors who are from this country that don't know how to communicate with people .

I have to say that I have come across this on a number of occasions in recent years in a work setting, usually in psychiatry where it is absolutely essential to have clear communication as well as a full understanding on the part of the doctor of the cultural context of any symptoms. This was a particular problem in out of hours services when doctors sometimes came to the UK from other European countries just to take part in an out of hours rota without ever living here. This was a response to the shortage of doctors but it does have its problems.

I have only had one experience of finding it difficult to communicate with a health professional due to a language problem. This was many years ago and though he probably spoke excellent English his accent was very strong and he became irritated when I kept asking him to slow down one repeat himself. I haven't personally come across this again in the 20+ years since.

The countries of origin of the prospective GPs are said to be India, Pakistan and Nigeria. I know that in African Commonwealth countries the language of secondary and university education is English and would be very surprised if the graduates from the sub-continent weren't fluent English speakers and writers because the bulk of the literature they need for their studies would be in English and, because of the multiplicity of native languages, the medium of instruction would surely be English as well. It would be interesting to know how many attempts the average British born candidate takes to pass the exams.

Thank you for your help and link WHEN I try to keep the articles from the DM and going through the paper I forget to separate it and DW disposes of the paper when we`ve read it inthe bin so by then I`ve forgotten to retrieve the paper ..once again thanks WHEN