Another beheading in France!

I feel the same as you maddyone. It makes me want to rush out and buy lots of French products to try to support France.

Very unsettling pictures maddyone. France has a huge military might, more than many even know about, so these other nations are playing with fire.

I saw pictures on the internet of people, mainly men, but some women, in Iran, Pakistan, India, and another country (can’t remember where now) demonstrating in huge crowds and burning big pictures of Macron and burning the French flag. I daren’t put what I really think about this on a public forum.

No-one, but no-one, has defended those heinous crimes. No-one.

And yes, I agree Urmstongran. I would not allow the wearing of any head covering which make contact and communication almost impossible.

I wish the imams would speak up and condemn these actions. They are mostly very quiet on the subject aren’t they?

We in the west are very tolerant. Yes, of course you can have a mosque next to our corner shops. Yes, wear your burkhas. Why not have a hook wearing hate preacher spouting out?

Our chickens have come home to roost. We have been too soft.

More respect for human life and less for religion.

I admire France for defending it's beliefs. If they are going to be intimidated to not express the need for individual expression then where are we all headed?
The muslim religion is basically the antithesis of free expression especially for women.
Should we want to follow in those footsteps?
I am sickened by any defense of beheadings carried out.

A priest has been shot outside his church in Lyon but the gunman has escaped.
France must feel like its living on a volcano at the moment

I don’t know if it was really Voltaire who said I hate what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it. Moslems do not follow that . I wept when I saw this cartoon.
On another thread I mentioned the poet Rumi . I could wish more young men of the Muslim faith had studied him. I was introduced to this philosopher poet by a young Muslim women who was learning English.

Devastating for all involved!

Yes, biba70, I was treading carefully saying "slightly". You mentioned the National Front. Something tells me Marine Le Penn has a daughter or niece who is very strong in Nice? I remember she spoke very passionately without being dramatic.

'slightly' is a huge understatement. I have had several assistants who were French Muslims at school in the UK. One of them lived with us and her friends and family visited- the mum, about my age, was the only one who wore a scarf.

Their stories of the day to day racism they experienced from a very young age- were mind blowing. At school, then at Uni- and even more so with job hunting- and later flat hunting. They were all amazed how welcomed they were in UK, ho equal and respected they felt for the first time.

All those were well educated and as said, never wore any signs of their religion. Imagine what it is like for others. NO justification, NO excuse - but background can help see how it is a vicious circle.

Laicité or securality does not apply to all French- a very large portion of traditional conservative French people send their kids to all white Catholic schools, funded by the state. Partly for religious reasons- partly to have no contact with 'the others'. Nice is a hotbed for the Front National and later associated parties. And a large proportion of members are 3rd and more generation of Catholics from Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc.

I find the French to be extremely proud of their nation. There are so many things I admire about them. They do have a fierce sense of nationalism which does occasionally slightly tip into racism. Sometimes I feel they don't have enough appreciation of how Muslims feel in France.
I just hope because someone has attacked their right to mock another religion, the French won't feel they have to do it even more. There is such hostility building.

Yes me too varian.

So do I varian.

I admire the way that the French people and the French president defend their secular constitution.

Libertie, Egalitie, Fraternitie.

A great foundation for a state.

Unfortunately some people or groups of people don’t have any understanding of diplomacy. Nor do all people understand the value of free speech. I think I would go so far as to say that in Britain today we do not truly have free speech. That’s not to say that I think we should feel free to upset or offend others, but the right to say exactly what they think has been removed. Is that a good thing? I feel it’s a double edged sword to be honest, partly good, partly not so good. But for any group to feel that they can murder so heinously because they were offended, well clearly they are absolutely incorrect about that. I’m pleased that at least one of these vile murderers will have to face justice in a French court.

Sometimes it pays to be diplomatic,

Jane10

There is quite simply no justification for such barbarism.

Totally agree Jane10 and I think by putting it into the "chat" thread you have shown that the issue goes beyond politics, religion etc where on GN too many people come to the discussion with preconceived views on a subject. I far more enjoy this type of talk where we can explore all avenues and share ideas.

There is quite simply no justification for such barbarism.

Appalling comments or tweet from former PM of Malaysia, something along the lines of "because historically the French have killed millions of people, many of them Muslims, then Muslims should be allowed to kill as many French people as they like". Take such an inflammatory statement to its logical conclusion, people of most nations would be killing each other much of the time. The general public cannot be held hostage for the sins of their nation's past. A very irresponsible statement trying to justify this latest barbarism and could well fan the flames of extremism further.

I believe France revised its curriculum in 2015 after the Charlie Hebdo murders and introduced new areas of learning. The teacher was actually a history and geography teacher with additional responsibilty for civic education. The syllabus seeks to emphasise France’s deeply-held belief in secularism.
I also believe it is introduced at primary level which for my liking is way too early. This constant drip drip, wearing away at other religions is not healthy until a child is old enough to fully understand the bigger picture.

X post biba70. Good explanation.

lemongrove my thoughts exactly. Cartoons, (an area in which the French excell), are problematic in themselves because they are usually violent and racist by nature. They serve to mock and demean, and are very successful in getting their message across.
Either those on the receiving end need to be more ready to laugh at them or they need to find other, more peaceful ways, ways in which to retaliate. Not easy.

Agreed- he could have studied the history of cartoons, how they were first used to criticise the king, the nobles and the clergy- at the time of the Revolution. How cartoons also played a huge part in depicting some sections of the population in the run up to wars, Jews by the nazis for instance. And showed cartoons criticising all religions, including Catholicism in France- where the split post Revolution between Clergy and Country were very clear. Show videos of the Guignols - the French version of Spitting Image- and other cartoons in Charlie Hebdo and The Canard Enchaîné - but no- he totally focussed his teaching on one religion only- one that many of his students belonged to, and for which they are often mocked, discriminated against, and worse.

This heinous crime was 100% wrong and cannot be excused. But the current constant provcation by Charlie Hebdo- and large sections of the French population- is fanning the flames and pouring petrol on top.

EllanVannin I have all my life believed if your values under attack "stand up and be counted". Yes, doing so does have consequence and reasonable comment, even on Gransnet, gratuitously reinvented and reviled as a means of closing down valid discussion. But if freedom of speech and expression is worth any thing it has to be worth defending.