Men in women's changing rooms - not transwomen, ordinary men

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202112/medium-819695-screenshot-20211212-192732.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202112/medium-686182-screenshot-20211212-192654.png

A bit of investigation by a male reporter :

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10300295/Bearded-6ft-reporter-let-female-changing-room-stores.html?fbclid=IwAR1j13_qpXqhIU9UVvQEjZ69dv3XzAxueo8qAjXK-e6ofy6FmDt_D0aaAF8

I am not prudish, but I am offended by men who ignore good manners just because they can. It is usually their wife or girlfriend who requires their silly opinion on some garment she is trying on.

What's next? That we can't question their right to touch us?

Lesbians already face harassment of that kind from men claiming to be lesbian women.

The OP, tho, is about plain men being in a women's changing room, which is a natural result of saying that any man who do chooses is to be accepted as a woman. He doesn't have to go on any 'journey' at all because a huge proportion of the population has been brainwashed into not even questioning such a man.
I understand the point you are making, and agree (perhaps unsurprisingly) that it is dangerous. If anyone, male or female, can be a woman, and if it is virtually impossible to get anyone other than a gender-critical feminist to define what a woman actually is, then being a woman is meaningless - women are meaningless.

If there is nowhere that women can go that is not accessible to males, then women from separatist religions will lose freedoms. Women without such religious beliefs will also lose freedoms, if they feel uncomfortable about having men in places where they feel vulnerable. Men, on the other hand can go where they like, and women are expected to just let them in. It's not difficult to imagine that there will be men who enjoy having that power over women.

A man who has transitioned and sees himself as a woman is likely to be accepted and included in most day to day activities as a woman. In my experience, most women are very accommodating on a personal level, and will not make transwomen feel uncomfortable unless there behaviour warrants it. It is not 'genuine transwomen' who are the issue, though - it is the men in the OP.

The idea that we can't question the right of men to be in our spaces on pain of being accused of transphobia is insidious. What's next? That we can't question their right to touch us?

FarNorth

CafeAuLait you are happy for anyone else to choose their own terminology yet you'd challenge men who have chosen the terminology of 'woman' but still present themselves as ordinary men do.

Of course, we don't know if the men in the OP had chosen any terminology other than 'men' but there they were in the women's changing room.

If you went back and read, you would see that I'm not challenging these men calling themselves women at all. I said I'd be willing to be welcoming, unlike just about everyone else here. I do know someone who identifies as a woman but presents as male at present. I would challenge obvious men by mentioning it to the sales assistant, but not if they were trying on women's clothes or discreetly going about their business. Depends on context and these days, you never know. Knowing transgender people in person, I do try to be supportive and just accept them for who they are. Everyone has the right to choose their identity labels including myself. Mine are all traditionally feminine and I'm not taking that away from myself.

My head is spinning after reading this thread. ?

CafeAuLait you are happy for anyone else to choose their own terminology yet you'd challenge men who have chosen the terminology of 'woman' but still present themselves as ordinary men do.

Of course, we don't know if the men in the OP had chosen any terminology other than 'men' but there they were in the women's changing room.

I would challenge the presence of such a man, FarNorth. I don't disagree with anything you've said and think you defined things very well.

I am most definitely going to hold onto the rights to use my feminine woman terminology for myself. I'll respect the right of anyone else to choose their own terminology as long as I have the same right, which I do.

Only women can be pregnant and trans men cannot bear children.

This shows that the confusing terminology used by trans activists is having the desired effect.
Transmen are biological females, who may, or may not, wish to or be able to get pregnant.
Transwomen are biological males.

A transman can be a pregnant person if that’s what appeals, rather than saying “I’m a pregnant woman”. The objection is when they want women to only be allowed to use pregnant person.

Exactly.
The terms for women don't need to be erased - extra terms for transmen can be included.

The only transman I know has transitioned surgically, so that is not an option. I do know if trying on clothes he would go to a men's changing room - and would pass completely. It's a huge journey to change so I'm sure no-one does it lightly. It goes well beyond the issue of surgery.

A transman is of no danger to male people. If the person passes as male there is no problem with them being in a men's changing room.

Likewise, a transwoman who passes as a woman will be unnoticed in a women's changing room if they do nothing out of the ordinary.

The OP, tho, is about plain men being in a women's changing room, which is a natural result of saying that any man who do chooses is to be accepted as a woman. He doesn't have to go on any 'journey' at all because a huge proportion of the population has been brainwashed into not even questioning such a man.

I do know the difference in transpeople is that they feel their biological sex doesn't match their mental/emotional gender. Hence why we now differentiate between sex and gender.

I do wonder if it is very difficult for transmen to go ahead and have babies. It must feel very contradictory to them. But if you really want a baby and have the right parts, I suppose they are able to overcome that to attain a goal.

I haven't personally known any transmen that have chosen to have babies. The only transman I know has transitioned surgically, so that is not an option. I do know if trying on clothes he would go to a men's changing room - and would pass completely. It's a huge journey to change so I'm sure no-one does it lightly. It goes well beyond the issue of surgery.

I will always refer to myself as a pregnant woman or mother though. For me that is an important part of my identity as a woman.

But Cafeaulait, transmen are female so of course they can get pregnant if they haven’t medically transitioned. One has to ask why they bother to say they’re men if they want to give birth apart from the attention they get.
Giving birth is only possible for human females. A transman can be a pregnant person if that’s what appeals, rather than saying “I’m a pregnant woman”. The objection is when they want women to only be allowed to use pregnant person.

singingnutty unfortunately your point would probably cause uproar, not discussion. Recently Rosie Duffield stated that only women have a cervix. She was cold shouldered by fellow MPs for this comment, and Keir Starmer said she was wrong. (I wonder where he is hiding his?) When society allows people to make outrageous statements that are in complete contradiction to the truth, and those who question such nonsense are ridiculed, cancelled, trolled and shouted down, we are moving towards a truly dangerous situation.

CafeAuLait given that transmen are are a vanishingly small percentage of the population, and an even tinier percentage of them will overcome their dysphoria enough to become pregnant, what is the point or purpose in using 'pregnant people' as opposed to 'pregnant women'? Why use a term applicable to a tiny minority rather than that applicable and desirable to the vast majority?
Women who choose not to have children or who are physically unable to have children will not need maternity services, I can't imagine why they'd object to the term 'pregnant women'. As you say, either way they are still very much women, not just 'people'

CafeAuLait

singingnutty

To go slightly off topic and throw another spanner into the troubled waters (sorry about mixed metaphor!), how do people feel about the recent references to 'pregnant people'? To me this is taking things too far. Only women can be pregnant and trans men cannot bear children.

Trans men can if they still have all the required parts.

Should add, I will always choose to refer to myself as a pregnant mother or woman. I get to choose how I identify as well, right? In generic literature, I can see why they are starting to use the more generic term as there are more trans-men carrying babies. If they still have a uterus and aren't taking hormones, I believe they can.

As another thought, a friend of mine is infertile and has had a full hysterectomy. She can't have children but is entirely a woman. Childbearing, or the ability to, is not the entire sum of womanhood. It's an important part of my womanhood to me, but for those who choose not to have children to who can't have children, it doesn't diminish them as women.

singingnutty

To go slightly off topic and throw another spanner into the troubled waters (sorry about mixed metaphor!), how do people feel about the recent references to 'pregnant people'? To me this is taking things too far. Only women can be pregnant and trans men cannot bear children.

Trans men can if they still have all the required parts.

Chewbacca

^Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?^

Because women have always moved over, shut up and compromised Dickens and it's an outrage when we complain. And some women are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they've become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more.

Hmm. Perhaps Handmaidens would be a better description for those “*women who are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they’ve become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more*.”

To go slightly off topic and throw another spanner into the troubled waters (sorry about mixed metaphor!), how do people feel about the recent references to 'pregnant people'? To me this is taking things too far. Only women can be pregnant and trans men cannot bear children.

Chewbacca

^Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?^

Because women have always moved over, shut up and compromised Dickens and it's an outrage when we complain. And some women are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they've become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more.

I'm happy with being a woman but, if I was a trans-man, I would use the men's changing room, if there wasn't a unisex area available.

One thing I am fed up with being told to feel unsafe and live my life around being 'safe' as a woman. We're all at risk, male and female, but I'm not going to live as a potential victim. I'd miss out on so much. I do exercise common sense, of course. I don't throw all caution to the wind.

From Fair Play For Women:

There were 134 reports of sexual assault in changing rooms over the two year period 2017 to 2018. Of these, 120 took place in gender-neutral changing rooms compared to just 14 in single
-sex changing areas. A further 46 sexual assault allegations were made about attacks in other areas such as in the pool, in a sports hall or corridors. These are not included in the percentages.

Trans rights activists claim that sex-segregated facilities would not deter someone who wanted to commit a sexual crime. If this were true you would expect incidents to be evenly distributed across single and mixed-sex changing spaces. Clearly they are not.

Full article here fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?

Because women have always moved over, shut up and compromised Dickens and it's an outrage when we complain. And some women are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they've become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more.

FarNorth

Hetty58 you said :

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

That strikes me as a homophobic comment.
I expect you are aware of the many statistics, a lot of them compiled by the UK Government, which show that women in general are at risk from men in general.
I don't know of any statistics showing that women in general are at risk from lesbian women (actual female lesbians, that is.)
Do you know of any, or were you just throwing out a casual insult to lesbians?

A man can choose to identify as a woman. Because he is a trans woman. He can also choose the same identity because he's not and is a pervert who wants access to women's spaces. And, now I've read further - there have been such cases.

It boils down to, once again, men being given the greater power, and women being told to shut up about it. And if you don't, you'll at least be accused of trans-phobia, or worse - possibly face legal consequences.

Why are men not being asked to accommodate trans-women with male genitalia in their changing rooms and toilets? Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?

Hetty58 you said :

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

That strikes me as a homophobic comment.
I expect you are aware of the many statistics, a lot of them compiled by the UK Government, which show that women in general are at risk from men in general.
I don't know of any statistics showing that women in general are at risk from lesbian women (actual female lesbians, that is.)
Do you know of any, or were you just throwing out a casual insult to lesbians?

The article in the OP is not about trans people. It is about men who are quite clearly men being allowed to use the women's changing room.
It is about women finding it uncomfortable and distressing that men can be in the women's changing room.

This is connected to the 'trans agenda', however, as some people raised the alarm that allowing trans-identified men into women's changing rooms etc would result in non-trans men also being allowed there.
That idea was pooh-poohed by people like Hetty58 yet now that is what is happening.

Clearly it is not possible to exclude any man who manages to 'pass' as a woman. It is possible to exclude anyone who is obviously a man, and that's just too bad for those people.
It's not the responsibility of women to accommodate all men who wish to claim to be women.

I can't remember the last time I was in a genuinely communal changing room, of the type that were commonplace in places like Biba in the 70s - basically a curtained off area in which several young women were trying on clothes and asking one another for fashion advice.

What now counts as a communal changing room is one with several cubicles (curtained or with doors) for dressing that lead onto a communal area with full length mirrors for looking at outfits and asking for advice.

Men in these areas could be subtle, and most 'genuine' transwomen probably will be - changing in private and only going into the communal area when fully dressed. The problem is that they give easy access to women in a state of undress, and a man who wants this access (as opposed to wanting to try on a dress in private) is, by definition, likely to make women uncomfortable.

As ever, the actions of TRAs who refuse to discuss the discomfort of women makes the situation of 'genuine transwomen' more difficult.

TBH I wouldn’t be bothered as long as it was cubicles. I don’t patronise any shops or anything else where there are only communal changing facilities. Ugh.