Do you remember when the man was the "head of the family"

My mum had not had the chance to go to Uni as Nan decided it was only for her brother. She was always bright and articulate but missed out on "critical thinking". but what she had instead were the 5 years she was trapped in France in WW2. (went to the North of France as au pair girl, but the Germans swept across the area rapidly). so at the end of the war she did one of the two year teaching courses and of course taught French.

Dad was unwilling at first to relinquish the role of Provider but no stopping mum as a born teacher. I can recall clearly her activism in the Union and the day that women teachers at last got equal pay - not until 1961!

but like in so many families (apart from managing the accounts) Mum did everything - all the planning and thinking for the needs of 4 kids. Dd put his feet up in the evenings and mum beavered away.

This hasn't changed enough although I see on the whole things are getting better. As a mum I worked part time and did everything planning wise including the money, but DH was a super Dad and helped DS so much when he was trying to get a career in Uni lecturing. I did feel some resentment but in fact it was in a way my fault - I could have asked him and engaged him in more decision making - but I just did what my mum did.

DS and DiL - well, DiL still really does the "thinking" bit but especially since one of my GC is severely disabled, they share everything practical possible.

I'm just glad my rather head in clouds son has met such a super loving organiser.

Witzend It was also the Nazi mantra chariotjournal.wordpress.com/2020/07/13/kinder-kuche-kirche-the-role-of-women-in-nazi-germany/

@ biglouis, in the example you gave where the girlfriend stayed at home to care for her children I don’t blame the man for finishing with unless they were his children too , which I don’t think they were.
If they were to move in together any benefits that she received would be stopped and he would be expected financially support her and her children . I don’t think that is fair on the man and he probably thought that if they couldn’t live together they might as well end the relationship.
P

Dickens, I seem to recall the old Swiss attitude towards a woman’s role being, ‘Kinder, Kirche, Kuche’ - (children, church, kitchen.).

Albertina, my elder sister was married very soon after graduating, and even though she did look young she was still a mite put out when a man came to the door (of the house they’d recently bought) and asked, ‘Is your mum or dad in?’

My ex husband decided that raising tiny children wasn't for him. We separated when the girls were 7 months and just 2.
Life was a struggle because he refused to support his children. In the end I got an earnings attachment order through the courts.
I had no family nearer than 400 miles away, although friends did help out occasionally. I went back to work part time which ended up being a mistake financially and physically as I had no car.
At a Gingerbread meeting I sat next to a lovely woman and in casual conversation asked her "What to you do ?" She looked at me in surprise and said "What do you mean, do ! I'm raising two children on my own, that's more than enough for me" She was right.
In my years as a single parent I answered the door to lots of tradespeople whose first question was usually "Is your husband in ? " or is the head of the household in ? I wonder if that still happens !!

biglouis

and the “breadwinner” and it was considered shameful for a wife to HAVE go out to work? I was brought up in such a family. When my mother had to take a part time job to make ends meet (I was about 14/15) I know my father hated it.

A short time ago there was a thread in mumsnet where a man had ended a relationship with his GF because she did not have a job. She had young children to care for, including one with special needs, so surely her “job” was being a mother/carer while the children still needed her.

The attitude now seems to be that unless you are the mom of young kids or are caring for someone then you should have an employed job, otherwise you are not contributing.

How times have changed.

Maybe it was just his excuse to finish with her!

We put far too much pressure on our young mothers so that they frequently feel guilty whether they work outside of the home or if they stay home to run the house and bring up their children. I have both stayed home with my children and helped to run the family business as well, from home in an office. When the children were 5 and 2 both my parents died and I inherited my grandmother who lived with them so we were a three generational household. I did work outside of the home for 1 year and loved it but everyone else in the house hated it, so I worked in the family business instead. I did enjoy that too, I was there when the children came home. I got a cleaner to come twice a week and she took the ironing home with her. Frankly that kept me sane , so it all worked out o.k. in the end.

I married into just such a family. My MIL had to ask for every single penny she needed - new shoes/ coat etc and it was so degrading because she had to prove how badly she needed them. My marriage was going in the same direction........I soon got out!

Back in the 70s I was working for an international company that employed people from various countries in Europe.

We had a quite young Swiss chap working in our office and one day when the conversation got round to women working (I can't even remember how it did veer towards that subject, but never mind), he informed the rest of the office that he believed when women married, they should stay at home to look after it and the children... "a woman's place is in the home" he declared.

My 'next-desk colleague' - a middle-aged, no nonsense, Scottish gentleman who had 5 daughters piped up in his broad accent... "a woman's place is wherever she decides it is, and they don't need advice from some pimply youth not long out of nappies". The whole office roared with laughter. I loved him for that and have never forgotten the exchange.

House prices are ludicrous now though, Fleurpepper, compared to say the 70s and 80s - wages haven’t increased at anything like the same rate. The deposit now needed is that much harder to save for, especially when rents have rocketed likewise.,

As an example, a flat we bought in around 2010 - a 2 bed, nothing at all special and not in a particularly sought after area, had doubled in price only about 7 or 8 years later, and if we’d bought similar in the late 1990s it would have cost less than half of what we’d paid.

I might add that when dd1 and SiL bought their first house virtually everything they furnished it with was 2nd hand. Not all young people demand everything shiny new.

Both my grandmothers and my mum always worked. My maternal GM was widowed in her 50s and lived an eventful life, holidaying abroad and thoroughly enjoying herself. My paternal GM was a bit of a matriarch and, although she was lovely and spoilt us children ,if she wanted something done it was done.
My mum was an excellent sales person and made more money with commission than my dad. I remember her teaching my brother and me to cook, because she thought it was a skill we both needed.

The male/female assumptions are still around, unfortunately.

A few years ago DH and went to buy a new car. I do 75% of the driving and DH isn't fussed about cars as long as it goes forwards and backwards. The salesman couldn't get it into his head that I was the one doing the test drive, not DH. He was clearly very uncomfortable about it.

I come from a long line of strong women, I suspect some of the men have had a rough time!

My MIL was very submissive and traditional though, clearly didn't approve of me having a career after we married. She also tried to give me a list of her family members so I could send them birthday and Christmas cards and presents on behalf of DH and I. I soon put her straight on that one. If any of them have ever received anything, it will be DHs doing, I have no idea when any birthdays are, especially as we don't live near enough to socialise.

''Today it is necessary for both partners to work, not only to afford the two cars necessary to get them to work but also to pay for the child care.''

well, I know I am going to be flamed- but there are also choices that can be made. We had very little when kids were born, got everything second-hand, had no holidays, and certainly none abroad, etc, etc. No eating out or take-aways, simple home-made food, I made all the clothes for the kids or got from factory shops, the list is endless. We 'made'do' and were very frugal.

Yes, our first house was cheap, but the wages were ridiculously low.

Years ago a man on a ‘standard’ wage could afford to look after a wife and a couple of children. If the wife ‘wished’ to work and the facility to look after the children was in place this was considered fine by most people. Today it is necessary for both partners to work, not only to afford the two cars necessary to get them to work but also to pay for the child care. Our system is totally broken with ludicrous housing and food costs quite divorced from average wages, we desperately need a revolution in Britain to reset our costs and wages into some sort of logical relationship to each other. Time for a General Strike, removal of ‘professional’ (=useless) politicians, and a reset in our way of life

How lovely Monica

Dickens, your experience in 1965 exactly mirrors mine when I went to the local electricity board (remember them?) to buy a fridge. They wouldn't sell it to me, I had to get my band-new DH to go himself.

My Mum did get a job, but had to convince my Dad, and I don't think he was very happy about it at first. But that job money went to extras; new furniture, etc. This wasn't until my youngest sister was in school full time, and oldest sister was almost 15, so we did the after school housekeeping and meal prep.

But as things turned out, my Dad was diagnosed with MS shortly afterwards, and was on disability within a short time. My mother's wages kept the family going.

But I do remember that when my Dad was ill and no longer working, he told my younger brother that he was the head of the household now, and had to make the decisions. DB was only around 12 at the time! Of course he couldn't make decisions for the family. But I'm afraid we all had to take responsibility on too soon, and Mum sunk into depression, so I think we all pitched in a bit for some decision making.

Happily DH and I are equals in all matters.

I’ve always worked and brought up four children. My dad had a well paid job and I was an only child and my mum worked part time throughout my childhood

My Mother became the Owner of the firm she had worked for and my father worked for her, and was subservient at work. The housework was mainly done by my aunt (Mother’s sister) who lived with us and was basically the live-in’Maid’, who came on holiday with us all. I never realised this was wrong to treat her as such as she accepted the ‘position’ and none of us ever questioned her role in the the family. Shamefacedly I never made a bed or cleaned til I was in my late teens and only then began to realise that this wasn’t how I should have treated my aunt or that this wasn’t how ‘normal’ families lived… (This did me a great disservice as it was very hard to learn to do these things as I became an adult!!)
Once at home however, my father sat in his chair, and, as someone else said earlier, he demanded ‘service’ but in a nice way and it was “put the coal on the fire/ bring me a cup of tea” etc, and we accepted this and Mum joined my aunt in the kitchen to complete the evening chores!! My Mum was born in 1908 and this was just the way of things!
When I married at 21 I found it very difficult to try to do all the things ‘women do’ and work all day as well, the ‘myth’ perpetuated…. Mind you I eventually worked out (after a couple of husbands!) this was not how it should be and my sons were brought up to become reasonably self-sufficient which I’m glad to say they are. Not sure I’ve ever become a ‘housewife’ though!

no mom divorced the drunk and worked her life.grandmom was a secratery and doing www2 was a bomb girl
her gran and all the ones before were teachers.til atleast the 1700s

My mother never worked . She employed a woman to do the “rough” housework.
When I was first married I worked until morning sickness made me give up..
My friend decided to get a job when her mother in law offered to look after her children. She found that she was worse off. Having to have decent clothes, bus fares, lunches etc and pay for child care.
I never worked but I made all my and children’s clothes. Everything except underwear, Belonged to the WI. Went to classes and came back and ran them at my wI. In those days there were mental hospitals so visited those who had been neglected by their families. Was always on W. I committees. In those days we had produce and handicraft shows etc to organise
Grew all our own vegetables. Helped and visited elderly people in the village
Had student exchanges with French children and was always there for my own children who called me a walking encylopedia.

biglouis

My father certainly had a predudice against anything which he saw as diminishing his position as the family provider. He refused to allow me to go on a school trip to Paris even though the school offered a bursary which would have paid for most of it. He saw it as "charity". It was something I never forgave him for. I told him I would travel the world one day and pay for it with my own money.

His attitude to education was "Whats the good of educating a girl? Your only going to get married and have babies."

When I told him I had decided never to have children he told me "You will have what God gives you."

That was his attitude towards a woman with aspirations.

When you educate a woman, you educate a family

I think 1 parent or carer should be enabled to stay home with their children until at least 3 if they want to.

If the children have added needs that require a parent to wake in the night or attend them in school at times, then that should be enabled as long as that is necessary.

I think more jobs should cater for parents to work a school hour day and pro rata pay for those who need more holiday.

I think working should actually reward you more than not working ( it doesn't in low paid jobs) and that staying at home with a young child should bring enough help to eat well and keep a good standard of home.

I think a lot of things but none of these things require a woman in the primary parenting role

My paternal grandparents had that attitude. My father was top of his year at the local grammar school yet his sisters weren't even allowed to take the scholarship exam as their parents didn't believe in education for girls. I never knew my grandfather as he died before I was born and though I met my grandmother I was only 3 when she died so I have little memory of her.
My aunts both had jobs as far as I remember but probably not at a level that they may have been capable of. My father didn't go to university as it was when there was no public funding so he missed out as his parents didn't encourage it. In the current age he would probably have made it to Oxbridge! He became an accountant, paying for his own training.
My maternal grandfather was very different. He sacrificed to enable my mum to go to college to train as a teacher. Grants came in after her first year so he only paid for her for that one year. He never had much money but was generous with what he had and enabled my mum to have the career she wanted. As a result she had a huge belief in education, gratitude for her upbringing and sadness for my dad who didn't have the same opportunities.
I had a university education and a career before having children but chose to be a stay at home mum. I just didn't love my work enough to go back to it, though I did work part time when I could fit it around my children as they got older. Everyone is different and I was lucky to have the choices I had. Sadly having little choice in the matter is often the case now as so many families struggle to make ends meet around working and paying for childcare. I loved being at home as a mum but my DiL has a career and if my DD has children she will still want her career too. Ideally we should all have that choice but we don't live in an ideal world!

My mum always treated my dad like he was head of the household but she did all the vegetable gardening, child caring, cooking, cleaning, washing and organising decorators, builders etc.Dad did the washing up and mowed the lawn. Mum didn’t work for anyone else but she had her own business when I was growing up and they both had huge respect for each other.