The 4th Industrial Revolution

You see, what you are calling sci fi film stuff, my son has been working with for the last 10 years.
My perspective is obviously different.

Sorry the link didn't work, but if you go into BBCRadio iPlayer it is easy to find. A series of programmes I believe.

Interesting POGS

I suppose I didnt realise a revolution goes on for so long.
Saying the current one started in 1970 does make some sort of sense.
It looks like being a long revolution though!
Ends in 2050 or thereabouts?

I will find some time to watch it MawBroon. Perhaps just the second one.
But I am not going to say that I will necessarily change my mind!

Radio 4 Ankers (the good thing I find about radio is that it lends itself to multitasking)

But just think, MB! You might not have to multi-task in the future. A friend has one of those robotic floor cleaners and it's fascinating watching the thing move around. The cat even sits on it. She can operate it remotely, so her floors can be cleaned when she's out of the house. The only trouble is that she has to be very tidy,so it wouldn't suit me at all. :-(

There's a scary potential for a handful of people to be in control, while the rest of us scurry about like worker bees.

Quite so, dd.

For one thing, what will all we worker bees be scurrying about doing if automation has taken over?

I think that to work at all it would need an utterly radical rethink of how society 'works'.

Looking at the UK, and perhaps even more so, the US, our societies are founded on the 'Puritan Work Ethic'. An individual's success and moral worth is measured by their success at earning their money and paying their way without relying on support from the State or 'others'. What is more, the money they earn is theirs and not to be regarded in any way as a common 'good'. A little of it might grudgingly be parted with as 'tax' so that the State can implement some basic functions ( well, it is if the individual isn't clever enough or rich enough to find ways of evading this) but what's left is a private good. People who depend on help from the State are regarded as morally deficient in some way. They are to be despised, mocked and laughed at on Reality TV.


To achieve the Nirvana described in the article there would need to be a complete rethink on how people can provide the basics of life, food, shelter, clothing etc. if they don't have any means of earning the money to pay for them because there are very few 'jobs' left after automisation. And how do they obtain all those 'luxuries'?

I think it is interesting that this seems to be the description of the 4th IR: Fully Automated Luxury Communism. That brings on a whole new train of thought.

And is living a 'workless' life really particularly luxurious? I think you have to be quite self disciplined to stay meaningfully occupied without any particular incentive to do so. And don't cite all us retired people who fill our days with all sorts of great activities - we've been 'trained' to do this by working for most of our lives.

I think it's on its way, though, and we can't avoid it. But it won't be Nirvana...

Well said, Maizie. I agree.

I think the implications will be more far-reaching than a blurring of physical,digital and spheres. There will be social and political implications too.

It's possible that there might be a rebirth of 'them' and 'us' politics, with unions and some kind of political party representing the workers. I think there needs to be, before those in control of the technology monopolise the agenda.

We're already beginning to see this happening with companies such as Cambridge Analytica's control of data and influence on the American elections and possibly the referendum. Companies such as Google, Facebook and Wikipedia wield enormous power by filtering the information we receive. Politicians these days can't hide misdemeanours or white lies, as they did in the past (ask Paul Nuttall!). Fake news can be around the world in seconds. Whenever a revolutionary group tries to stage a coup, one of the first things it does is take over state broadcasting channels. That won't be so easy with social media, so it's essential that those in control of social media are aware of their power and the public is aware how it can be manipulated.

I have no idea what the world will be like in 30 years,but I bet people will look back and think our age was a bit quaint. I think we are living through a revolution, but I don't know how it will end up.

Apparently, and I cant remember which companies exactly, our government would like to do more about hate speech or whatever on Facebook, Google or whatever. But because the companies are american owned, the UK government is limited in what it can do.

Isnt Wikipedia different however. Ordinary people can change things on there, and regularly do?

Wiki now has editors, who monitor the site more closely than in the past. It used to be possible to post any old rubbish, but no more. Wiki articles have to give sources. If there aren't any reliable sources, the editors delete or state that the information is unsourced.

Google isn't responsible for hate speech, because it's only a search engine, but it can and does filter certain sites and is responsible for the order in which searchers find the sites.

People who use Facebook and Twitter are responsible for what they write as individuals. Facebook has some strange algorithms for deleting certain posts. They can't monitor everything, which is why it's so important for the public to be educated to become critical readers.

Makes me think of Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful", from the 1970's, a study of economics as if people mattered.
The revolution where robots take over mundane work and leave people to have a better quality of life instead of doing those jobs was predictable back then.
Unfortunately it requires a socialist will and a national plan to make use of.
We have known about the problems that the NHS will bring for decades, but nobody wanted to do anything about it, except to blame the elderly for getting older and needing more resources.

www.systemslearning.org/

Thanks for the link, Duhramjen; it looks very interesting.

durhanjen, if I remember correctly, you really like robots?

I don't know how any of us who are retired would deal with both the constant change and the insecurity of the jobs market these days. No sooner have you got your head round the fact that you may be working in the Gig Economy than you realise that your attempts to work for yourself may have put you into the Platform Economy where you may think you are self-employed but you are actually a 'worker' (not an employee) and have to do as the Platform dictates while taking on all the costs and worries of your own business with none of the hard earned pensions, sick-pay, holidays, etc.

If this is not enough you may find that this is part of a Protean career; watch out or that career will have gone and you may not have spotted the next big thing. No comfort from training, entering a business, more training, promotion and ending with a nice fat defined benefit pension. You will be lucky if your portfolio of careers puts a decent pension together.

Of course, you may get into one of the few remaining organisations that appear to be hierarchical only to find they run a boundarylessorganisation so you will be expected to respond and change constantly not just be given a job and report to ... now who is that this week ... more insecurity!

I can see the revolution in work having wonderful results but I can also see the damage being done along the way.

Not forgetting the benefits system that says that if you are not earning enough and need to claim universal credit, you still have to look for extra work or else your credit is stopped because you have not been looking for work.
There must be a name for that, as well, apart from stupid.

Back in the seventies, Schumacher's ideas seemed so simple, Gracesgran.

To an extent, robots are already doing some mundane jobs. Learning has changed as result of technology. However, there will for the foreseeable future be some jobs which can only be done by humans. These tend to be creative jobs requiring sophisticated decision making.

Even jobs dealing with people are not safe. Think about the systems used to decide benefit claims, which are causing havoc. The standard first-line treatment for depression is an online CBT-based course (less said about that the better!). Schools use a number of apps for practising maths andvocabulary in foreign languages, which pupils are already finding boring. I think we could very well see a backlash,just as many call centres were repatriated to the UK. On the other hand, I wonder whether there will be a return to automated car washes, if Eastern Europeans return to their countries of origin.

Ironically,many hi-tech companies treat their staff well and recognise that employees need to be nurtured. Many of them have well-stocked fridges with healthy snacks and relaxation 'pods' for resting their brains.

I don't think there's any doubt that less-skilled jobs will go - it's already happening. CEOs will do a cost analysis and decide that in many cases, robots are cheaper and more efficient.

There need to be some fundamental questions about the purpose of economic activity. Should it be to add figures to a balance sheet or to increase people's well-being? The progress in gadgetry is exponential, but should we do something just because we can? As humans, I think we need to be aware of our responsibility to ourselves and the planet. When Rutherford and his team first split the atom, they changed the face of physics. Many people have benefited from nuclear medicine but,of course,it was the same discovery which led to nuclear weapons.

To be honest, I can't see a will to put people first.

Me neither.
Profit trumps people.

Hi tech companies also feed their employees breakfast! Long since forgotten why though.

One of the things the governments always try to do is get unemployment figures down. If unemployment increases dramatically because of machines taking over more jobs, it will not look good on the record.

True, but they might start altering how unemployment is measurered, or some such nonsense.

And I am right, You do like robots. Though I cant remember why.

It's going to be interesting to see what will happen about the car industry now that Peugeot is buying out Vauxhall.
Jobs definitely to go.
Perhaps we need to think more about reducing our reliance on cars, think more about public transport, improving bus and rail travel, think more about the circular economy.

Have you ever worked on an oldfashioned factory production line, Ankers? Boring, repetitive unskilled work. I did it for 3 months in my 20s. It was a good experience in some ways but not a lifelong career! Robots are more than welcome to those kinds of job.

But, as I said before, to make this future work for everyone would need a radical rethink of society.
Perhaps the universal income might be a first step?

Agreed, Maizie.

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