Sovereignty and 'take back control'

Lemon
It's the only way apparently to get the thousands and thousands of laws onto the statute books in time for exiting the EU.
I am not objecting to a wholesale movement of laws, I am objecting to giving any Tom, Dick or Harriet of a Minister Carte Blanche to change those existing laws without any scrutiny from Parliament.

^ I am objecting to giving any Tom, Dick or Harriet of a Minister Carte Blanche to change those existing laws without any scrutiny from Parliament.^

Thanks, CherryHatrick. This response makes it clear to me where you think that 'sovereignty' lies in our constitution.

Tricia kind of defined it earlier in the thread; I'm trying to find out who people think should exercise it, or, in other words, should have the ultimate power to make and change laws.

Looks as if there is no other way though to do it in time.

(sorry, not doing very well with my formatting tonight )

There is a precedent apparently, for doing it that way, in the 1970's on going into the EEC.

POGS

I will listen further to the debates in Parliament presumably starting again Monday and try to make my decision as to what I think. It is not a black and white issue the grey area is complicated and I need to hear more from the lips of the MP's not the media.

I know that you will give a considered response to this particular issue, but I wonder if you could answer the first part of the question I posed in my OP. i.e your understanding of 'sovereignty' (specifically the UK version of sovereignty)

Petition on 38 degrees for anyone interested, against the rigging of select committees. To my mind the use of 'sovereignty' by the Leavers was an empty emotive word.

Well Maizie d my view is Sovereignty is a fact not an opinion so I wonder why Sovereignty is so confusing.

Sovereignty is the authority of a state to govern itself, and determine its own laws and policies and I fail to know how to describe it otherwise.

By the way your OP asked 'Leavers' their understanding and I did not vote Leave. I have played Devils Advocate on many occasions because I strongly feel a democratic vote was taken and I am appalled at the ease democracy has been cast aside.

I voted Remain but I hovered over my ballot paper and the question of loss of Sovereignty was one of the reasons why .

I have read post after post that has denied the UK has lost 'Sovereignty' , said we make our own laws etc. etc. I find that bemusing.

If we have never lost 'Sovereignty' and the ultimate right to self governance why would we be putting a Bill through Parliament to transfer all EU laws and regulation into UK Law?

OK, POGS

Who, in our constitution,do you understand to be 'sovereign'? The legislature or the executive?

I see both 'Legislature' and ' Executive' as simply 2 words that fall under the overall meaning of Sovereignty.

We are putting a Bill through Parliament to transfer all EU laws because the muppets organising it have finally realised that it will take years to go through them all one by one and if we just repealed them all it would be total chaos. Now we face the possibility of May being able to steamroller anything she wants through parliament with no opposition at all.

Deeda

It still comes down to the 'fact' we have adopted EU Laws/Regulation no matter how much some proclaim that is not true or have said we have not lost Sovereignty .

That applies to all 28 nations in the EU and it is not only an issue in the UK is it?

Most of the EU regulations and laws were the idea of the U.K. and actually written by the UK as it is considered to be one of the best law making country.

Which of the EU rules/laws do you object to as it is bad for the British people? As far as I can see they all protect the British people.

Welsh wife

Who said anything was bad?

Your question is a fair one but it would be fair for me to ask 'which laws were written by the UK'. We could bish bash back and forth until next year but the minutia of individual laws and regulations are not going to answer the question of Sovereignty.

The 'fact' will not be diminished the UK has adopted EU Law and Regulation and it is a folly not to accept that has been the case. I have read ridiculous posts for over a year that have denied that fact and insisted we have total 'Sovereignty' calling anybody who held a different view as having a lower intelligence.

POGS How do you reconcile your view of the extent of the UK's 'sovereignty' while in the EU with the statement made in the government's A50 white paper that we have never relinquished sovereignty?

I think that POGS has answered the case on sovereignty well, there is nothing to add to it in my view.
Why is it such a mystery to some?

lemongrove

There is no case on sovereignty. I'm not asking for a debate; I'm asking for people to tell me what they understand by 'sovereignty'.I am disappointed that Leavers are unable to tell me; the only relevant responses having been from people who voted Remain.

Perhaps I should have phrased my question differently but I thought that the second element of it, were they worried about the government's attempts to bypass Parliament, might have given a clue as to where 'sovereignty' lies in our constitution.

Have you reached a conclusion about how many leavers actually have a actual concept of Sovereignty Maizie? This thread leaves me with the impression I started with - very few knew or cared; it was a useful word to hang their prejudices on. A few really did understand and I can empathise with where they are coming from.

What worries me, GG2 is that they have no idea why the tory government's current moves are a direct threat to the sovereignty enshrined in our constitution.

Well I am not a leaver but I would see it like this. Sovereignty was the supreme power attributed, in our case, to the Sovereign. Following the Bloodless (it wasn't of course) Revolution and a few other bits of our history we agreed to stop chopping off Monarchs (Sovereigns) heads if they passed sovereignty to Parliament. Not to the government - to Parliament. Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution and this include the Lords and Commons, the Government and the Opposition.

All bodies who have sovereignty (and any self-governing state does) can trade little bits of it for other things like being in a trading body with other countries or an alliance to be there in time of war. Our Parliament has passed laws to limit their own sovereignty when they devolved power to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly, enacted the Human Rights Act, joined the European Union in 1973, and established the UK Supreme Court in 2009. All of these decisions took power from Parliament and passed it elsewhere by the agreement of Parliament.

Mrs May has attacked sovereignty on at least three occasions and I have to wonder if she actually understands it. Firstly, she attacked the judiciary because they would not let her have her own way when she was acting illegally and against the sovereignty of Parliament. Secondly by trying nefariously to give Parliaments powers over to the government and thirdly by not informing Parliament as she should.

Maizie d

I really do feel I have given my view on what Sovereignty means , TO ME.

I have already said I am listening to 'both sides ' of the argument by watching as much as I can through the debates in Parliament, hearing from the Horses Mouth not reading or listening to some sanctimonious journalist or activist , biased link or partisan view left or right of politics.

As I have said I am not finding anything has a black or white answer due to so many complications. Both sides are raising good points given the need to comply with the Democratic Referendum result of leaving the European Union.

One thing I will admit to having a concern over is the issue of the ' so-called ' power grab by Theresa May.

I am reminded of the fact that whilst this is an issue regarding Theresa Mays Government , at present, in the future it could Jeremy Corbyn's Government and therefore I am probably as concerned as those who are concerned about Theresa May for the very same reason.

I suppose at the moment I am relying on our Parliament to debate honestly, put partisan / biased thoughts to one side and come up with a satisfactory conclusion.

There's that flying pig again.

GG MK 2

Whilst your post is a mild one for you when you say things such as :-

" This thread leaves me with the impression I started with - very few knew or cared; it was a useful word to hang their prejudices on. "

You exemplify why so many posters cannot be bothered nor are willing to debate on Brexit related threads, lord knows there are plenty of them .

The problem has been the intolerance to accept others hold a different view , opinion and they should have the right to do so without 'always' being told they are inferior in intelligence, xenophobic, racist, far right wing or 'hold prejudices' as has been the case since the Referendum on whether to Remain or Stay in the EU.

No doubt you will challenge my opinion and I will have to accept that but other posters will see both our posts and make their own decision as to which of us they agree with .

There choice will presumably prove to be as divided on our take on the matter as the Referendum result.

Very true POGS and I agree with you unsurprisingly.?

If there were any other way to get all the laws onto the statute books in time for us to leave the EU then that would be better, obviously, but there isn't.
Watching a Labour spokeswoman yesterday on The Daily Politics, she was given every chance by the presenter to say how Labour would have done it.She didn't have an answer.

POGS
You got it in one. This thread leaves me with the impression etc.