British workers are among the worst idlers in the world

Day6.
Excellent comments.

The Lisbon treaty made a few changes to other treaties -it was not a new one and it also gave the right to individual countries to leave the EU.

I agree about the downgrading of some degrees and much of this does stem from the upgrading of polytechnics to University status. I knew a woman who taught Law in one of these institutions and she said that they were giving people aspirations above their capabilities.

I think employers are well aware of the differences in universities and also the quality of the degree gained. I feel sorry for some of the youngsters who went to these lesser places and now find themselves in the position of owing many thousands and a job they could have been doing with no more than the qualifications they left school with.

"I shall now inform the younger members of my family that their degrees are of no value (compared to yours and mine) and the fact that we have a doctor, research scientist, managers and teachers among others, is worth little."

Your family are SO bright mcem. Good for you.

My children have degrees. I am surprised one of them gained University entrance to be honest! They are doing well for themselves but their degrees were almost irrelevant. Going into the sixth form and then on to University has become the norm now and it is iniquitous imo. It's about funding and not the best interests of the student. So many are not academic but forced through hoops. A degree is now an accessory and having worked with under graduates I am shocked at how little so many know.

Obviously there are exceptions to that and some youngsters ARE academic and genuinely intelligent, but by and large a degree today is fairly meaningless. Many Universities do foundation courses galore to allow the non-academic,, those without A levels the side door into a degree course.

My point was that life has changed. Older people like us have been lambasted as being thick and gullible and influenced by Boris and Farage and a bus.

There will be many who write here who don't have academic qualifications but are far brighter than many with degrees. Our generation didn't have the same opportunities but the smear "Thickos voted to Leave" is insulting. Bright, older people with wisdom and life experience voted to leave, as did those with academic qualifications. On both side those lacking knowledge voted and were swayed by arguments.

As for the OP it's an attempt to castigate someone based on old news, a pathetic attempt to smear a Leave campaigner. As others have said, the personalities involved in the Referendum campaigns were not a significant factor in voting. I voted Leave and doubt very much if I'd ask for Boris's thoughts in any situation! Patel is now campaigning against modern day slavery and the gangs who control it. Credible work I'd say.

I agree with Day6. I don't know anyone who would give any credence to anything that Priti Patel says or who doesn't think that she is dreadful. A territorial army trained Christian right winger known for being on the neo-Thatcherite vanguard of the party ... championing free market economics and a free state leading a department that she previously argued should be scrapped. Yes, just the person that people would listen to.
Shoehorning Brexit into this discussion as yet another excuse to feel superior to Leave voters is getting a bit tiresome. If you want to discuss the issues or merits, fair enough, but to start from what is essentially 'is this why people that I have decided are stupid made a stupid decision' is just keeping the debate at a low tit for tat level.
People often say that British people are lazy but of course don't include themselves in that. I worked hard and so did most of the people I worked with throughout my working life. The workmen who come to my estate at various times always work hard and don't need to have someone watching over them.

Not sure about some professions, but I feel Pritti Patel should do a night or week-end in A&E, or any NHS hospital ward, or spend a Friday ot two with a teacher in any f our State Schools

Nurses, doctors, teachers, social workers, etc, etc, in the UK work much longer hours, and have much larger numbers of patients, clients or students of anywhere in the EU. Class sizes here are around 16 to 18- 20 or 25 being practically unkown, never mind 30+.

Shoehorning Brexit into this discussion as yet another excuse to feel superior to Leave voters is getting a bit tiresome.

I think the problem for Remain voters is that one has a tendency to judge people by the company they keep. A look at the leading Leave campaigners doesn't really throw up anyone much better than Patel. So one has to either think that Leavers must be sympathetic to the views of these leaders or they must be gullible.

Why would someone who has castigated the British as idlers be leading a campaign which virtually promised the British population that leaving the EU would give them jobs and prosperity through our hugely increased trading opportunities?

It might be a 6 year old story but it has relevance today.

Leaving aside the Brexit issues - Are British workers among the worst idlers in the world?
Sometimes when we talk about the 'British Workforce' it's as if we are talking about a great unknown amorphous body. Remember we all are, or have been at some time, part of the British workforce.
I have worked for many years in Education and also in IT and the financial sector. In every job I have worked in, my colleagues have worked hard and usually longer and harder than they are paid for. It has always been the norm to take work home, answer e-mails in the evening, work weekends if required etc
My only experience of working abroad was a summer's work experience in France. I worked in a shipping office. The staff arrived at 9, spent 15 minutes shaking hands with each other and catching up. At mid-day we were given luncheon vouchers to have a leisurely 3 course lunch at a local restaurant. On Fridays, work stopped at 12, the drinks cabinet was opened and we all had a convivial drink together before departing for the weekend!
Of course that doesn't mean that our productivity is better. I sometimes wonder if a lot of the 'work' colleagues rush around doing is actually unproductive. Now I am older and wiser, I do as much as I can and finish when I should without getting stressed!

Schools and Universities need to be taking responsibility and saying to young people at the beginning whether or not they are suitable for a University course and getting a qualification which will enable them to gain employment. There are other routes to qualifications and good jobs besides a degree gained by going straight to University after school.
We have examples of all these sorts of things in our family and being suited to the career you choose is very important. Young people need helpful advice as to their best course of action for their own abilities and circumstances. Suitable training on a job you enjoy is important too and progression possibilities rather than just knowing you are stuck in a depressing dead end job.

MaizieD If you judge people by the company that you assume that they keep, and assume that that company is full of right wing thickos, then you are bigoted.
It sounds a bit like guilt by association - which is generally considered to be a bad thing by the educated.
Given a choice between spending time with the late Tony Benn or Priti Patel, I would choose the former and decline the latter. I would be quite happy in his company or that of Dennis Skinner. Richard Branson, not so much.

Our low productivity is because we have relatively low investment in the sort of things that raise productivity: new machine tools, new information technology, new skills training. And the reason we have relatively low investment is because it has been cheaper for employers to hire additional staff (usually skilled or semi-skilled, usually from abroad) than to invest in things that would enable the existing staff to produce more. This state of affairs may well change with Brexit. Japan, which has a labour shortage and refuses to have mass immigration, invests in robot and other technology, even in places like care homes. I bet their workers are paid more than ours too.

This debate is surprisingly similar to the many debates that we're having right here in the US. In the 2016 election, many people were dissatisfied with the status quo, and so they voted for someone who they perceived as an outsider who could tip the odds against the so called 'Establishment'.

Statistically, the majority of voters who elected Trump were NOT college educated. The remaining number of voters in the same demographic pool had a higher education to varying degrees (no pun intended).

Many voters in the US are now having severe buyer's remorse and are beginning to come out and admit they made a mistake. Others loathe that they were duped and stubbornly invent lame excuses for every stupidity. In that respect, having a college degree or not doesn't make a lick of difference!

I think the fact that she said it 5 year ago is irrelevant. Since then, has she expressed a different opinion or said that she was mistaken in her comment? Has she suddenly decided that the reason productivity is relatively low compared to many other European countries is because of under investment, poor management/worker relationships, with workers generally have no stake or say in what happens in their places of work, etc. etc?

It's interesting that, as others have pointed out, she was a great champion of leaving the EU and yet it appears she has no faith in or respect for British workers en masse. I can only assume then that her enthusiasm for breaking away from the EU was to rid the UK of "red tape", i.e. proper health and safety conditions, protection of workers' rights, etc. etc. and escalate policies already adopted that squeeze working people until the pips squeak.

And Priti Patel is one of the many people whose previous jobs are what I would describe as non-productive non-jobs that do little to enhance society such as lobbyists, marketing and PR executives, etc. etc. Her Wikipaedia entry includes this information:

" She worked for the public relations consultancy firm Weber Shandwick for several years, as part of which she lobbied for the tobacco and alcohol industries" and goes on to say:

"Patel has been criticised by political opponents for defending the tobacco and alcohol industries".

Hardly a glowing example of someone who has made a great contribution to society.

I know this is off thread, but I must take issue with Welshwife’s statement about the downgrading of degrees being linked to the bestowing of university status on to polytechnics. I had the benefit of studying for one year at a university, but had to start again at a polytechnic when my husband had to move jobs. The teaching, syllabus and course were far superior at the polytechnic. I never felt I was in a second best institution. I agree it may have been widened too far now when nearly every higher education institution is deemed a university.

The one thing I have never heard talk about,with our relationship to the rest of Europe ,is the fact that we are an island nation.
That makes a huge difference to our national psyche.
When speaking to French,German and Belgium people over the years, the one thing they all have in common is the fact that they feel neighbourly to each other.
They all regularly 'pop' over to one or the other countries and it's no big thing for them.
For us it has always been an event. Even now with the Tunnel it's certainly not straightforward.
We will always be 'that fortress set in a silver sea '. That's what makes us different.

You can't tar all British workers with the same brush. I've worked with foreign workers and British and Irish workers in health care. They were all different. Some of the foreign workers were lazy and did the least amount of work possible - and so were some of the Brits. It was entirely down to attitude.
My DH worked for a French firm - he was considered one of their best workers, while some of the French were lazy and bolshie - striking at drop of a hat. All different.

Sorry...got carried away and just realised my post has nothing to do with the thread. Apologies
I have to agree with lovebeigecardigans..we are all different.
However,I have noticed that different races have their own 'momentum'.
Historically we are rather 'laid back .That is until we are pushed...then 'God help 'em'!
Generally speaking each race does indeed live up to its own reputation because, historically,they have earned that reputation but that doesn't mean that within that nation each are tarred with the same brush.
The internet and general speed of communication today will have a great influence on changing all that.

How can you generalise? [astonished]

Yes please Cherrytree, as long as it's salted

I think saying British workers are lazy is a bit of a generalisation. Some are, some aren't - the same as the rest of the world but I think the UK's welfare system does discourage people from working full time as they see they can get their wages topped up with tax credits and other benefits.

Although I voted for Brexit, I do sneakingly admire some of the young Europeans who have made the effort to seek a new life here and are working hard and valued by employers. However, I am very against those who have not paid into the system receiving benefits when they have not contributed to the capital costs e.g. building of hospitals in the first place. That applies to our own home grown lot as well as foreigners. They may well pay some taxes in the future but that just supports on the going costs.

Hope this thread doesn't make it on to F.B. Some very biased views!!

When we were caring for my Grandad, we had to employ help. Without exception, the Philippine workers really took the job to heart, would do far more than they were employed to do and really thought about their patient. Equally the English workers kept an eye on their watches and were usually ready to leave 15 minutes before they were due to finish. At the end, the English would not give any truck to having their hours or workplace adjusted whilst the Philippine girls were more than happy. I found it rather sad but I think it is a cultural thing. Obviously this is just one small part of things but I see it replicated across hospitals, service industries, et. Regardless of whatever I feel about Brexit, I would like to see more of a culture hardworking from the British.
It is also interesting about Uni education. Years ago, a good set of A levels would get you into the Civil Service as an Executive Officer or other public services but nowadays, you need a degree. Having attended Uni in the 80's, watched my husband attend in the 90's and my children attend in the Noughties, I have to say it is my impression that the standards have dropped somewhat. It isn't our children's fault, it is the system. Recently my SIL got a first at University. He is, quite frankly, illiterate and we were astonished. I just shudder to think what the company who employed him thought once he actually wrote them a report! Let's just say I read his Facebook posts with my deciphering head on!

Lemongrove you coudn't have put my thoughts better. Thank you.

Day6 is the best post I have ever read on here. She or he is absolutely right in what they say. Todays kids go to university as a matter of course. Thanks to the Labour Party and especially Tony Blair. It is how they come out of university and what they do that matters.

paddyann I don't know what you mean by different level of education, sounds very snobbish to me. I am a leaver and proud of it, I want our government to control our borders, I am all for a reduction in the amount of foreign Nationals allowed to settle here. Oh, I nearly forgot, I went to University, Cambridge actually, a Double First.
I've just seen your post MinniesMum, great minds think alike.

Salt and butter, please.