Hong Kong

Would you put a trade agreement before people's rights and freedoms?

Spot on, Callistemon. Many Hongkong citizens worked for the colonial administration and we have a moral responsibility to them and all HK citizens to do as much as we can to protect their rights that were negotiated at the time of the handover.

stop treating those Chinese authorities in terms similar to them being subjects of Imperialist Britain at its height.

Amazing, though, isn't it, that so many people around the world preferred being subjects of Imperialist Britain to what has evolved since then in many places.

Perhaps that is why so many are eager to belong to the Commonwealth.

Exactly Callistemon! The fact that we are the only imperial power that former colonys want to stay closely aligned to must surely tell us that perhaps we weren't quite as dreadful as we're now all led to believe! To fly the colonial flag would indicate the desperation these poor people feel. However DH wondered if perhaps the violence was perpetrated in part by mainland China? The perfect excuse to finally wield the "big stick"! Perhaps he's wrong, I sincerely hope so.

This was always going to happen sooner or later. You cannot hand over a flourishing democracy to a totalitarian state and expect two,different systems to operate.

A young friend of mine has just removed herself and her family back to the UK from Hong Kong as she has seen the writing on the wall.

I don’t buy into conspiracy theories. The young people of Hong Kong face an uncertain future and it is essential that other countries and the UN express their support for their democratic rights. Extradition to China is tantamount to eroding these.

It was only a thought Anja, bearing in mind the Communist inspired riots of the past!
The agreement signed with China is valid until 2049! That is why we as signatories have a duty to protest at the obvious flouting of this agreement by China. I too fear for these young people and the whole of Hong Kong.

What exactly can we do about it ?

This country has been renowned for interfering look what happened in Iraq, through/since the death of Saddam, ISIS was formed-----why can't we keep out of things which don't directly concern us.?

Anja HK has never been a democracy in any way that we would recognise under British rule. Any moves in that direction were too little and too late as the end of the lease loomed. Some people think that if the British had thought longer term and allowed universal franchise and direct elections decades earlier, the roots of democracy would have had time to flourish and deepen and have changed the whole dynamic with China. But that’s as may be but no one should be under any illusion that in essence there was no meaningful democracy in HK under the British - it was a colony

It does directly affect us! If you have a binding agreement with another party and that party blatantly flouts that agreement to the detriment of its people then it is the business of the co respondent to at least express their concern and disapproval! We can and should at do that and not take the attitude of shrugging our shoulders! This situation is nothing like Iraq! We were not a colonial power in Iraq and we have never had the responsibility of the welfare of its people as we did with HK!

EllanVannin Iraq was a totally different situation and a red herring, although I agree with you about interfering there.

It's interesting that Macau does not seem to be having problems - did they negotiate the same type of agreement in 1999? It is certainly one of the richest regions in the world now, due to gambling and tourism.

Anja HK has never been a democracy in any way that we would recognise under British rule. Any moves in that direction were too little and too late as the end of the lease loomed
suziewoozie I think that attempts by the British to bring democracy to Hong Kong were thwarted for many years, at least since the 1950s, presumably China playing 'the long game'.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong

Here is a very long article about the history of democracy in Hongkong.

It makes clear that any attempts to enfranchise the people in a way we would recognise would have had the PLA across the border in no time. That was the last thing anyone wanted.

The Colonial Government though acted as a benign dictatorship, at least when we were there from 1974 to 1984.

What happened was that someone would write an indignant letter to the South China Morning Post. If enough other people chimed in in support, the Givernment would change it’s mind about whatever they had been objecting to.

The point I was making janeainsworth and Calliestemon was in response to Anja’s comment that HK had been a democracy - it never has been. In response to what might have been done differently , we’ll never know of course and as with all colonies, there were a range of vested interests amongst the colonisers, the more powerful of the colonised and the vast majority who had no real say in what happened to them and were exploited to a greater or lesser extent benignly or otherwise ( that last sentence is not specific to HK).

Grandad

'Britain no longer any responsibility for Hong Kong. That responsibility is now in the hands of the Hong Kong legislating Authority and the Chinese Government.

The UK government should stay out of that dispute and stop treating those Chinese authorities in terms similar to them being subjects of Imperialist Britain at its height.'
-

The fact the British held a 99 year lease signed with the Qing Empire ( Convention for the Extension of Hong Kong Territory), which as we know ended in 1997, lead to the' 'Handover ' of power to Cina but in 1985 the British Government and China had signed ' The Sino-British Joint Declaration and was registered by the People's Republic of China and United Kingdom governments at the United Nations on 12 June 1985 which states:-

' In accordance with the "One country, two systems" principle agreed between the United Kingdom and the People's Republic of China, the socialist system of the People's Republic of China would not be practised in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR), and Hong Kong's previous capitalist and its way of life would remain unchanged for a period of 50 years. This would have left Hong Kong unchanged until 2047.'

The Joint Declaration provided that these basic policies should be stipulated in the Hong Kong Basic Law'
---

So it is felt by many that the British Government as Co Signees of the ' The Sino-British Joint Declaration' do have a responsibility for Hong Kong, as do the United Nations upto 2047. At least to speak out on behalf of the Hong Kong people to whom we had negotiated the deal with China. China should be the ones to uphold their end of the deal under ' The Sino-British Joint Declaration' as the British Government have.

As for the continual point made re the British Colonial Empire / Imperialism and Hong Kong there is hardly ever recognition that Hong Kong was in indeed ' leased out' to the British Government but the Qing Empire ' leased out' it's territories to many countries around the same period the British Government ' leased.' Hong Kong.

A lot of people continually use the ' leasing' of Hong Kong as a perverbial batton to beat the British Government over the head with in their constant indignation that the British were and ' still are' to date Imperialistic Swine and only the British are to blaim for all the ills of the world and colonised overseas territories.

Happy to be corrected on any details I have made by the way.

Thank you Pogs

Thank you for posting that, POGS.

So many British people have such close links with Hong Kong and I think some posters fail to realise that it is not just another place on the world map, nor just 'a relic of the British Empire'.

Thank you POGS! I think that clarifys the position perfectly. As you say Britain was NOT the only country to have colonies, but to hear some people you would think this was the case! Presumably these same people disapprove of the Commonwealth of our onetime colonies!! France still has them, but apparently that is ok, only the wicked British are guilty!
The Chinese treatment of their Muslim population is very alarming. Not our business of course?!!! (But the American
treatment of migrants is!!) No wonder the people of HK are fearful to the point of desperation, and yes, we, and the UN (as if?!!) should very worried and make this very clear to China.

It's getting really bad now isn't it.

Worrying about those young student protestors.

It’s frightening, I feel so sad, poor HK

Meanwhile, there is a similar situation in Kashmir, where there are riots because Delhi wants to impose direct rule. Does anybody care?

China wants control of HK, if not now, next month or next year, it will happen, The student protesters are giving China an excuse to intervene, HK is not an independent state it is an economic area within China and nobody is going to come to its aid.
Let’s hope there is no bloodshed but if China does take over they will be very heavy handed and many thousands are going to be sent to “ re-education camps” just as dissidents in the mainland are.
Although China is nominally communist the reality is a massive dictatorship headed by Xi and massively rich party members, who have secret police controlling the lives of every person. All the media in China is controlled and we only get information they want us to have.

I one hundred percent agree with your above post Davidhs. The protesters are now giving every excuse to the Chinese mainland authorities to move into Hong Kong and take full control.

Should the above take place, then it will not end well for the protesters or the entire population of Hong Kong I feel.

Remember Tiananmen Square.

When Hong Kong became independent, it must have been obvious what was going to happen. Why is the world so shocked?

Hong Kong is not and never has been independent RosieLeah, nor has it ever had any real democracy, either as a UK colony or as part of China since 1997.