Far left and far right

Janpt I would imagine the woman in question cleaned and looked after the school areas with dedication and pride. Most school cleaners go above and beyond their allotted duties. It's not her fault she isn't paid enough to live on and without government support she would starve. Blaming her for the system's faults is much worse than being patronising.

My apologies janpt I see you have already visited.

Bingo! instead of expecting the government to support them and not to have children they could not afford I knew I wouldn't be disappointed. Now Janpt we need you to pop over to Where are the Tory supporters who seem shy in supporting the government?, some views are a bit unrepresented on there, the loony left are running amok

trisher That's the problem. The solution would be to encourage people to take pride in their own achievements instead of expecting the government to support them and not to have children they could not afford.

Now I understand Janpt starving with honour is better than accepting charity. But hadn't this woman already accepted charity to begin with? She was using a food bank. Since when has wanting a decent lifestyle for other people been "patronising pity"? It's a basic corner stone of socialism.

Lucca

growstuff

Ilovecheese

Lucca perhaps the post just before yours might qualify.

Nah! That's just the recipient of today's prize for whataboutery.

For me name calling would be “you’re lazy/stupid/ a bully” etc. But sometimes on political threads just stating your view gets you described as a name caller!
It’s like the frankly illogical idea that those who are left leaning hate their country...??? What all of it ? The people the traditions the culture the landscape the architecture ?.
Also the view that criticising the current government means you’re a Marxist.....
I’m with the poster who said that Thatcher was to me unlikeable but efficient and a leader.
Please let’s not abandon the cut and thrust of these threads, would it not be boring if everyone agreed?

I don't actually see any cut and thrust in this thread.

Nobody has attempted to define what being "hard left" or "hard right" is in political theory terms, nor has anybody attempted to explain why "left" and "right" theories clash.

I would also like to ask GagaJo why the so called 'elitist government' got into power and gained so many votes from Labour.

That is not the killer question that you think it is, janpt

trisher I don't know where you got that idea from. The woman was making a great effort to help herself by working and can take pride in doing that. She does not need the patronizing pity of someone who is lucky enough to be in a better situation. I would also like to ask GagaJo why the so called 'elitist government' got into power and gained so many votes from Labour.

Janpt

GagaJo Here you go again promoting yourself with your education, amount of money you earn. Does it make you feel good to feel superior to the woman who cleaned your classroom ? Thank God we have what you call 'an elitist government' rather than the Marxist one you would prefer. It is a fact of life that people are not equal but some make the effort to improve their situation rather than sit back and expect the government to do it for them.

Ok so hands up anyone else who thought Gagajo was Demonstrating a sense of superiority???? Honestly ?

Janpt, with respect you have read her post all wrong.

growstuff

Ilovecheese

Lucca perhaps the post just before yours might qualify.

Nah! That's just the recipient of today's prize for whataboutery.

For me name calling would be “you’re lazy/stupid/ a bully” etc. But sometimes on political threads just stating your view gets you described as a name caller!
It’s like the frankly illogical idea that those who are left leaning hate their country...??? What all of it ? The people the traditions the culture the landscape the architecture ?.
Also the view that criticising the current government means you’re a Marxist.....
I’m with the poster who said that Thatcher was to me unlikeable but efficient and a leader.
Please let’s not abandon the cut and thrust of these threads, would it not be boring if everyone agreed?

Janpt if all you gathered from Gagajo's post was your opinion that she was "promoting herself" I despair of your humanity. Did you have no sense of concern about the woman who cleaned the class room?

Ilovecheese

Lucca perhaps the post just before yours might qualify.

Nah! That's just the recipient of today's prize for whataboutery.

Lucca perhaps the post just before yours might qualify.

Loislovesstewie

I don't care where you are on the political spectrum, I only ask that we can have a sensible debate without name calling.

What is classed as name calling ?

GagaJo Here you go again promoting yourself with your education, amount of money you earn. Does it make you feel good to feel superior to the woman who cleaned your classroom ? Thank God we have what you call 'an elitist government' rather than the Marxist one you would prefer. It is a fact of life that people are not equal but some make the effort to improve their situation rather than sit back and expect the government to do it for them.

Gagajo- great post and I feel just the same. We have paid a lot of taxes in our lifetime and I never begrudged it at all- only when it was used for war. But now... to line the coffers of the ERG, Cummings and Johnson- it makes me feel sick. The amount wasted on massive projects given without tender to their mates, be it on Covid or Brexit, and without any results anyhow- is just sickening in the extreme.

EllanVannin

Would we have been treated differently if we'd been Labour voters ? I wonder.

EllanVannin, I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. I don't blame ANYONE for trying to make a little extra, cash in hand. I'm very, very fortunate that I haven't needed benefits, because I know that despite my level of education, that I would struggle to access the system. It is one of many steps to make it deliberately difficult to prevent people from being able to access it.

The woman who cleaned my classroom in my last UK school was on Universal Credit. She could barely afford to eat and in the time I was at the school, she deteriorated hugely. She went from an average slim person, to being skeletal in appearance. We were the same age. I drove in my nice warm car to work everyday. She walked, ran or shine. Obviously a car was so far outside her orbit that it wasn't ever a consideration. She told me about how when she switched from the previous benefit, to universal credit, it took them over 3 months to sort it all out, leaving her penniless. No money for rent, utilities, food. That was when she started having to use food banks.

I pay a lot of tax and national insurance. I pay them (IMO) to enable a welfare state. I DO NOT pay them for the likes of Dominic Cummings or Rees Mogg to line their pockets with dodgy deals which benefit our country in no way, shape or form.

There for the grace of god...

As for your vote. I hesitate to bring politics into this. But with an elitist government in power, the poor or needy are NEVER going to be a consideration. I wish you the best now and hope you (and I!) never need to rely on benefits again.

but fraud is fraud at any level and we all suffer because of it.

We don't suffer as much as you think from low level tax evasion because taxation doesn't fund government spending. The people in what is popularly known as the 'black economy' will be spending what they earn in the 'real' economy, supporting local businesses and service providers. Whereas the big tax evaders take their surplus money out of the real economy by offshoring it or investing it in the financial markets. They may spend a bit more than the small scale 'evaders', but we surely all know that 'trickle down' from the spending of the wealthy doesn't do much for the real economy.

As I said before, I'm not condoning it, but it isn't a disaster.

EllanVannin You are actually admitting that you have the same moral values as somebody who defrauds the system. The only difference is that you haven't found a way to get away with it.

That's nothing to do with being Far Right or Far Left.

If only tax payments did support the less fortunate to have some kind of decent lifestyle with food, a roof, heating and clothes. It doesn't. £73 a week doesn't go very far, which is why people feel compelled to find work without declaring it.

I'm actually a bit curious. With the current regulations, it's almost impossible for the self-employed to be eligible for Universal Credit. Even if a self-employed person earns nothing in a particular week, it's assumed that he/she is earning national minimum wage x 30 hours and is, therefore, not eligible for benefits, unless he/she has particularly high housing costs. In that case, the payment is still miniscule. The only way to claim benefits is to register as unemployed.

The only saving would come from tax, not benefits, as cash in hand payments are presumably not declared.

Any tradesperson who boasts about defrauding the benefit system isn't the sharpest knife in the box for advertising the fact and doesn't seem to know what he/she's talking about anyway.

Trisher you may well be right, it's a minefield, but I feel that if I stick to my principle of supporting the bona fide workers at least I am certain of supporting the taxpayer and consequently supporting the less fortunate.
I do agree that there are worse crimes than minor benefit fraud at the higher end of the scale and want to see it dealt with but fraud is fraud at any level and we all suffer because of it.

Sparkling, 'Far Left' and 'Far Right' mean different things to different people. Many believe their views are near the middle, with slightly left or right leanings - when they are not.

You ask:

'Why I wonder do Far Left dislike the UK?'

I'm wondering what you mean by that? Maybe you mistake criticism for dislike?

Sorry Peardrop50 I missed it. As far as working and claiming benefit goes it is actually allowed and in fact encouraged by the government's Universal Credit system. The trouble is that Universal Credit doesn't respond very well to changes. So your workman may not even be defrauding the system. The amount someone can earn depends upon lots of details such as the children they, have housing costs, etc. Your workman may simply be trying to stop himself becoming a victim of the system. For example if you pay him £300 one week for work and he declared that he might lose Universal Credit that week, the next week he might earn £100, well within his earning limit, but he would already be in the system. It's easier to stay out. Even if he is as you consider defrauding the system it is probably for a small amount occasionally. It's not major fraud like tax evasion.

EllanVanin While I sympathise with your sad situation and the stresses you've suffered, I doubt if people making the decisions would have any knowledge of how you vote.